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I was right about Shield Master
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7509835" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>It's very common to see "if" and "when" used interchangeably in these sorts of contexts, so - without more to suggest that it matters - I wouldn't treat this as significant. (Eg 4e is full of these sorts of stylistic but - from the rules point of view - meaningless variations which are simply the produce of different writers at different times.)</p><p></p><p>The obvious concern with "if you make an attack" is that it allows multiple uses - which get coralled by the general limit on bonus actions, but nevertheless is an unsettling implication especially in a "specific beats general" ruleset. So I think it's easy to see why they didn't go with that.</p><p></p><p>My own view remains that <em>taking the attack action</em> can't occur independently of <em>making an attack roll</em>, any more than <em>brushing your teeth</em> can take place independently of <em>moving your tooth brush</em> - in both cases the latter is not the totality of the former, but is an essential constituent of the former occurring.</p><p></p><p>To me, that therefore implies that the <em>bonus</em> action must come after that first attack. But [MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION]'s clever (if in some sense unsatisfying) argument about the practical irrelevance of policing the bonus vs non-bonus action in the event that the non-bonus action doesn't come to pass offers a pratical gameplay reason to expand the reading the natural language would otherwise suggest. My final interpretation would be driven by balance concerns - ie is it too strong to get to do your shove for <em>all</em> your attacks rather than some - but I'm not going to try and work that out (certainly not in the context of this thread!, and I don't think I'm competent to attempt it at all).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7509835, member: 42582"] It's very common to see "if" and "when" used interchangeably in these sorts of contexts, so - without more to suggest that it matters - I wouldn't treat this as significant. (Eg 4e is full of these sorts of stylistic but - from the rules point of view - meaningless variations which are simply the produce of different writers at different times.) The obvious concern with "if you make an attack" is that it allows multiple uses - which get coralled by the general limit on bonus actions, but nevertheless is an unsettling implication especially in a "specific beats general" ruleset. So I think it's easy to see why they didn't go with that. My own view remains that [I]taking the attack action[/I] can't occur independently of [I]making an attack roll[/I], any more than [I]brushing your teeth[/I] can take place independently of [I]moving your tooth brush[/I] - in both cases the latter is not the totality of the former, but is an essential constituent of the former occurring. To me, that therefore implies that the [I]bonus[/I] action must come after that first attack. But [MENTION=205]TwoSix[/MENTION]'s clever (if in some sense unsatisfying) argument about the practical irrelevance of policing the bonus vs non-bonus action in the event that the non-bonus action doesn't come to pass offers a pratical gameplay reason to expand the reading the natural language would otherwise suggest. My final interpretation would be driven by balance concerns - ie is it too strong to get to do your shove for [I]all[/I] your attacks rather than some - but I'm not going to try and work that out (certainly not in the context of this thread!, and I don't think I'm competent to attempt it at all). [/QUOTE]
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