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Iain, Ian, and You
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<blockquote data-quote="Argyle King" data-source="post: 6050017" data-attributes="member: 58416"><p>For an example of what I am trying to get at, I'll bring up the ability to improvise.</p><p></p><p>Note: I'm not trying to pick on D&D, and what I'm about to say isn't in any way intended to slight a particular edition. I simply chose it because it's an easy to illustrate example.</p><p></p><p></p><p>For the most part, ability scores do not have much of a meaning in the context of the in-game fiction when I'm playing the current edition of D&D. What does it mean that an epic level monster has a charisma score of 40? Does it say something about the capabilities of the monster or is that score there simply because the game says it should be at that level? I tend to believe the latter is more true.</p><p></p><p>So, what does that have to do with improvising?</p><p></p><p>Well, while I am more then welcome to make things up as I go, I have little context to base my decisions on. Damage, HP, ability scores, and a plethora of other statistics have nothing at all to do with what feels right to me based upon my mind's vision or my desire to be creative. Instead, those statistics are very heavily tied to the concept of level. It is not a concept which is difficult to understand, and I most certainly can work with it; I've been playing D&D for quite a while. However, I find that (as briefly mentioned previously) I need to bend my vision to the desires and assumptions of the system more so than I am able to simply just create what makes sense to me and roll with it.</p><p></p><p>In contrast, I am also a GURPS 4th Edition player, and those numbers actually mean something tangible. Because of that tangibility, if the PCs run afoul of the town guards, I have something solid to base what I feel the skill of those guards should be. If the typical guard is an average swordsman, I know offhand right about where his skill level should be. Likewise, if the captain of the guard is an expert swordsman, I know offhand right about where his skill level should be, and I also have a pretty good idea of what his other abilities should be. I feel more able to improvise based upon my vision and what feels right to me rather than feeling so beholden to metagame concepts which don't really have any sort of tangible context within the fiction of the story. </p><p></p><p>I chose these two systems for my example because I think they illustrate different styles and allow me to contrast easily. While many people say D&D 4th Edition is a very easy game to learn and run (and I highly agree that it is,) I find that it's not always easy to improvise without needing a book in hand because I'm improvising based on abstractions and out-of-game information. </p><p></p><p>Consistency is also an issue. I've also learned (while playing D&D) that knowing how one piece of the game works may give me no insight at all into how something else works. I'll actually pick on 3rd Edition here and bring up the rules for turning undead. I had a heck of a time remembering those rules; more so than I ever had for grappling. I was rolling a d20 and then comparing that to a chart so I could roll some d6 which I then compared to something else. I had no idea what was going on. I may not even be remembering that right. </p><p></p><p>Bringing up consistency brings me back to improvisation too. Looking up a rule in a book is not difficult. In the case of turning, if I were going to play a cleric, I would put a bookmark in that area of the book or I would write down the things I had a hard time remembering. However, that is another example in which I would have a hard time improvising an answer and having it be close to the "correct" answer.</p><p></p><p>In contrast, even if I completely blank on a rule in a game where there's a good "physics engine" that makes sense to me and where there is better consistency, I can guess at what feels right for the outcome and it will be pretty close to how things should work --even without stopping to look it up. Overall, my preference --when I want to be creative-- is to be able to express my vision and have a game which helps facilitate my story rather than one which opposes my vision because it has a vastly different view of how the world should work than I do. </p><p></p><p>For me personally, I find that I have better results when I'm using a game in which the 'physics engine' of the world more closely maps to what makes sense to me. I'd rather be able to create my vision and roll with it than need to worry about shoehorning my vision into the metagame concepts of a system which don't have any kind of tangible meaning within the fiction. I find that to be true even if I am playing an outlandish and completely unrealistic game because I can always start with the more solid baseline and abstract away from it if need be. I find that going the other way --starting with something more abstract & chaotic and then trying to pair that down to a more solid experience is more difficult and hinders my vision. That isn't necessarily something which requires a lot of rules, but I do think it requires a certain style of rules; a certain consistency and style of law at the base. </p><p></p><p>As a GM, I never feel beholden to RAW. I am well aware that individual groups can (and do) tweak systems to get an experience which suits their table best. Even in GURPS, I prefer to use a house rule which changes how Will relates to Int, and in D&D I do not run skill challenges anywhere near how they are written, and I do improvise D&D monsters. However; in the case of the current D&D edition I still find that doing so requires me to understand a sort of second reality --the reality as dictated by game. Having to take my vision and then bend it to conform to that second reality is (I feel) more difficult than if I did not need to do that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Argyle King, post: 6050017, member: 58416"] For an example of what I am trying to get at, I'll bring up the ability to improvise. Note: I'm not trying to pick on D&D, and what I'm about to say isn't in any way intended to slight a particular edition. I simply chose it because it's an easy to illustrate example. For the most part, ability scores do not have much of a meaning in the context of the in-game fiction when I'm playing the current edition of D&D. What does it mean that an epic level monster has a charisma score of 40? Does it say something about the capabilities of the monster or is that score there simply because the game says it should be at that level? I tend to believe the latter is more true. So, what does that have to do with improvising? Well, while I am more then welcome to make things up as I go, I have little context to base my decisions on. Damage, HP, ability scores, and a plethora of other statistics have nothing at all to do with what feels right to me based upon my mind's vision or my desire to be creative. Instead, those statistics are very heavily tied to the concept of level. It is not a concept which is difficult to understand, and I most certainly can work with it; I've been playing D&D for quite a while. However, I find that (as briefly mentioned previously) I need to bend my vision to the desires and assumptions of the system more so than I am able to simply just create what makes sense to me and roll with it. In contrast, I am also a GURPS 4th Edition player, and those numbers actually mean something tangible. Because of that tangibility, if the PCs run afoul of the town guards, I have something solid to base what I feel the skill of those guards should be. If the typical guard is an average swordsman, I know offhand right about where his skill level should be. Likewise, if the captain of the guard is an expert swordsman, I know offhand right about where his skill level should be, and I also have a pretty good idea of what his other abilities should be. I feel more able to improvise based upon my vision and what feels right to me rather than feeling so beholden to metagame concepts which don't really have any sort of tangible context within the fiction of the story. I chose these two systems for my example because I think they illustrate different styles and allow me to contrast easily. While many people say D&D 4th Edition is a very easy game to learn and run (and I highly agree that it is,) I find that it's not always easy to improvise without needing a book in hand because I'm improvising based on abstractions and out-of-game information. Consistency is also an issue. I've also learned (while playing D&D) that knowing how one piece of the game works may give me no insight at all into how something else works. I'll actually pick on 3rd Edition here and bring up the rules for turning undead. I had a heck of a time remembering those rules; more so than I ever had for grappling. I was rolling a d20 and then comparing that to a chart so I could roll some d6 which I then compared to something else. I had no idea what was going on. I may not even be remembering that right. Bringing up consistency brings me back to improvisation too. Looking up a rule in a book is not difficult. In the case of turning, if I were going to play a cleric, I would put a bookmark in that area of the book or I would write down the things I had a hard time remembering. However, that is another example in which I would have a hard time improvising an answer and having it be close to the "correct" answer. In contrast, even if I completely blank on a rule in a game where there's a good "physics engine" that makes sense to me and where there is better consistency, I can guess at what feels right for the outcome and it will be pretty close to how things should work --even without stopping to look it up. Overall, my preference --when I want to be creative-- is to be able to express my vision and have a game which helps facilitate my story rather than one which opposes my vision because it has a vastly different view of how the world should work than I do. For me personally, I find that I have better results when I'm using a game in which the 'physics engine' of the world more closely maps to what makes sense to me. I'd rather be able to create my vision and roll with it than need to worry about shoehorning my vision into the metagame concepts of a system which don't have any kind of tangible meaning within the fiction. I find that to be true even if I am playing an outlandish and completely unrealistic game because I can always start with the more solid baseline and abstract away from it if need be. I find that going the other way --starting with something more abstract & chaotic and then trying to pair that down to a more solid experience is more difficult and hinders my vision. That isn't necessarily something which requires a lot of rules, but I do think it requires a certain style of rules; a certain consistency and style of law at the base. As a GM, I never feel beholden to RAW. I am well aware that individual groups can (and do) tweak systems to get an experience which suits their table best. Even in GURPS, I prefer to use a house rule which changes how Will relates to Int, and in D&D I do not run skill challenges anywhere near how they are written, and I do improvise D&D monsters. However; in the case of the current D&D edition I still find that doing so requires me to understand a sort of second reality --the reality as dictated by game. Having to take my vision and then bend it to conform to that second reality is (I feel) more difficult than if I did not need to do that. [/QUOTE]
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