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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7588384" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>A little bit, but I don't need them to be exhaustive or descriptive, I just need an idea. </p><p></p><p>For example, my players just recently wanted to make disguises to sneak into an enemy city. Slightly difficult since one of them has a cloak they can't take off that constantly shines with light. </p><p></p><p>So, I asked them who they wanted to be disguised as. It was a bit of a discussion, but once they settled on a Lord and his entourage that was good enough to start resolving the check. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>See, this is hard to turn into a proper discussion, because the original scenario was terribly sarcastic on purpose. </p><p></p><p>Yeah, if you say you wipe the handle, then you are going to find a contact poison. That's just obvious to me. </p><p></p><p>But, if you say you check the door for traps, and we agree that you roll the dice, and you roll low even with all your bonuses... how else do you explain it? We all can look at the die sitting on the table, and see that it is an incredibly low number. For some reason your thief with poison trap specialty missed the poison trap, it is a low die number, maybe you just didn't give it your best effort on that one? </p><p></p><p>But if my description of why you failed offends you, then you can call me out on it and we can discuss the real reason you failed. But, if we roll the dice, and the dice say you failed, then you failed. You can't say "but I looked really closely and I'm really good at this, I couldn't have failed". We rolled, you failed. The question is just how and why you failed. And if you have a reason you like for the why, then great, we'll go with yours. But, a lot of my players don't have those ideas. They can't conceive of why they failed when they are so good at the thing, so I have to provide the answer. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The example talks about times when Insight is impossible. Insight is about reading body language and tone and the like. </p><p></p><p>A letter says what is says, to determine if what the letter says is true you have to figure out what the facts are. In my experience when I run into people trying to Insight a letter, they aren't thinking of an approach. They are forgetting that they are dealing with the written word instead of the person talking to them. </p><p></p><p>After all, they can't see the letter, they just hear me talking. So, a reminder that it is a letter and you can't see if a letter is lying about what it says, usually is enough to get people thinking of other approaches to figuring out if the information is true that will actually yield results. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, look, I get it. Really I do. Some people are like rabid dogs defending a bone when it comes to their character's autonomy. Because of whatever reasons. </p><p></p><p>But I'm not going around making stuff up out of nowhere when I do this. I play off of the recent events in the story, off of the established pattern of your character's personality. I don't tell the selfless paladin he's thinking about murdering that guy in the bar who spilled his drink, but the barbarian whose established he's a vindictive jerk who holds even the smallest grudge? That's perfectly in character for him to think that. </p><p></p><p>And, again, if you don't like my description. If it offends you, then we can come up with something else. But, we know something had to have happened, because you failed at your goal. </p><p></p><p>Edit: I'm coming across a little harsh here, and I want to step back for a moment. </p><p></p><p>I also get annoyed when DM's tell me what actions my character takes. I'm still salty about a DM ruling where a fellow player was trying for a non-lethal takedown, but because a crticial hit the DM ruled it was a maiming blow that left the target footless. </p><p></p><p>But at the same time, I've also had players who bristle at the slightest hint of me doing anything with how their character feels. IE:</p><p></p><p>"As the terrifying form of the dragon rises over the-"</p><p>"Wargros isn't scared. You can't tell me how he feels, he's seen way more terrifying things than that dragon"</p><p></p><p>And the momentum of the scene is ruined, because some guy had to get upset that his warrior might feel fear. Or awe. Or any emotion at all. </p><p></p><p>It is frustrating as a DM to end up with a player with whom you can use no descriptive language at all, because you can't tell them how their character feels about anything at all. And I've dealt with that, and it annoyed the crap out of me.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 7588384, member: 6801228"] A little bit, but I don't need them to be exhaustive or descriptive, I just need an idea. For example, my players just recently wanted to make disguises to sneak into an enemy city. Slightly difficult since one of them has a cloak they can't take off that constantly shines with light. So, I asked them who they wanted to be disguised as. It was a bit of a discussion, but once they settled on a Lord and his entourage that was good enough to start resolving the check. See, this is hard to turn into a proper discussion, because the original scenario was terribly sarcastic on purpose. Yeah, if you say you wipe the handle, then you are going to find a contact poison. That's just obvious to me. But, if you say you check the door for traps, and we agree that you roll the dice, and you roll low even with all your bonuses... how else do you explain it? We all can look at the die sitting on the table, and see that it is an incredibly low number. For some reason your thief with poison trap specialty missed the poison trap, it is a low die number, maybe you just didn't give it your best effort on that one? But if my description of why you failed offends you, then you can call me out on it and we can discuss the real reason you failed. But, if we roll the dice, and the dice say you failed, then you failed. You can't say "but I looked really closely and I'm really good at this, I couldn't have failed". We rolled, you failed. The question is just how and why you failed. And if you have a reason you like for the why, then great, we'll go with yours. But, a lot of my players don't have those ideas. They can't conceive of why they failed when they are so good at the thing, so I have to provide the answer. The example talks about times when Insight is impossible. Insight is about reading body language and tone and the like. A letter says what is says, to determine if what the letter says is true you have to figure out what the facts are. In my experience when I run into people trying to Insight a letter, they aren't thinking of an approach. They are forgetting that they are dealing with the written word instead of the person talking to them. After all, they can't see the letter, they just hear me talking. So, a reminder that it is a letter and you can't see if a letter is lying about what it says, usually is enough to get people thinking of other approaches to figuring out if the information is true that will actually yield results. Yeah, look, I get it. Really I do. Some people are like rabid dogs defending a bone when it comes to their character's autonomy. Because of whatever reasons. But I'm not going around making stuff up out of nowhere when I do this. I play off of the recent events in the story, off of the established pattern of your character's personality. I don't tell the selfless paladin he's thinking about murdering that guy in the bar who spilled his drink, but the barbarian whose established he's a vindictive jerk who holds even the smallest grudge? That's perfectly in character for him to think that. And, again, if you don't like my description. If it offends you, then we can come up with something else. But, we know something had to have happened, because you failed at your goal. Edit: I'm coming across a little harsh here, and I want to step back for a moment. I also get annoyed when DM's tell me what actions my character takes. I'm still salty about a DM ruling where a fellow player was trying for a non-lethal takedown, but because a crticial hit the DM ruled it was a maiming blow that left the target footless. But at the same time, I've also had players who bristle at the slightest hint of me doing anything with how their character feels. IE: "As the terrifying form of the dragon rises over the-" "Wargros isn't scared. You can't tell me how he feels, he's seen way more terrifying things than that dragon" And the momentum of the scene is ruined, because some guy had to get upset that his warrior might feel fear. Or awe. Or any emotion at all. It is frustrating as a DM to end up with a player with whom you can use no descriptive language at all, because you can't tell them how their character feels about anything at all. And I've dealt with that, and it annoyed the crap out of me. [/QUOTE]
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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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