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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7588908" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I think the point is that <em>it's not because of a good description</em>. It's because <em>the described approach does not leave any uncertainty</em> as to whether or not the PC achieves his/her goal.</p><p></p><p>To me, this seems to be backwards.</p><p></p><p>For it to be the case that <em>a player is bypassing a skill check</em>, it would have to be the case that <em>the game, by default, contains certain prescribed skill checks</em>. But it doesn't. (At least, no RPG that I play has this. It sound like a total railroad.) A RPG unfolds by the players saying what their PCs do, and then - depending on details of system and fiction - a check might be required.</p><p></p><p>Suppose that the game is D&D, and the GM says "OK, you're at the edge of the cliff looking down on the orc camp at its base. What next?"</p><p></p><p>If a player says "I push a boulder over the edge so that it crashes down among the orcs," then in most versions of D&D the GM might call for some sort of STR check to successfully push the boulder in a controlled fashion. If the PC is wearing a Girdle of Giant Strength, though, then maybe not.</p><p></p><p>If a player says "I pull out my crowbar and lever a boulder over the edge so that it crashes down among the orcs," then my prediction is less confident. Some tables might treat this as some kind of buff to a STR check; others, which like to emphasise equipment and preparation, might allow this to work automatically.</p><p></p><p>If a playr says "I pull out my scroll of Major Creation and read the spell so as to bring a boulder into existence above the orc camp!," then in most versions of D&D that will not require a check.</p><p></p><p>It's not about <em>bypassing checks</em>. It's about whether or not the actions declared by the PCs, in light of system and fiction, require a check to adjudicate them. (EDIT: Ninja'd on this point by [MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION].)</p><p></p><p>What if one of the PCs has the ability to make his/her hand ethereal?</p><p></p><p>Or to dissolve the chest in acid (subsequently recovering the jewels left behind)?</p><p></p><p>The 2nd I've addressed above.</p><p></p><p>To the 3rd I would offer an answer that is similar to [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION]'s - why are we including stuff in the fiction that doesn't matter to play?</p><p></p><p>On the 4th: in my GMing, the point of checks is to determine <em>how the fiction develops</em>, not to establish <em>uncertainty on the part of the players as to how the fiction is developing</em>.</p><p></p><p>On the 1st: I want to know what the PC is doing. I can't know how the ficiton will develop if I don't know what's happening in it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7588908, member: 42582"] I think the point is that [I]it's not because of a good description[/I]. It's because [I]the described approach does not leave any uncertainty[/I] as to whether or not the PC achieves his/her goal. To me, this seems to be backwards. For it to be the case that [I]a player is bypassing a skill check[/I], it would have to be the case that [I]the game, by default, contains certain prescribed skill checks[/I]. But it doesn't. (At least, no RPG that I play has this. It sound like a total railroad.) A RPG unfolds by the players saying what their PCs do, and then - depending on details of system and fiction - a check might be required. Suppose that the game is D&D, and the GM says "OK, you're at the edge of the cliff looking down on the orc camp at its base. What next?" If a player says "I push a boulder over the edge so that it crashes down among the orcs," then in most versions of D&D the GM might call for some sort of STR check to successfully push the boulder in a controlled fashion. If the PC is wearing a Girdle of Giant Strength, though, then maybe not. If a player says "I pull out my crowbar and lever a boulder over the edge so that it crashes down among the orcs," then my prediction is less confident. Some tables might treat this as some kind of buff to a STR check; others, which like to emphasise equipment and preparation, might allow this to work automatically. If a playr says "I pull out my scroll of Major Creation and read the spell so as to bring a boulder into existence above the orc camp!," then in most versions of D&D that will not require a check. It's not about [I]bypassing checks[/I]. It's about whether or not the actions declared by the PCs, in light of system and fiction, require a check to adjudicate them. (EDIT: Ninja'd on this point by [MENTION=6801328]Elfcrusher[/MENTION].) What if one of the PCs has the ability to make his/her hand ethereal? Or to dissolve the chest in acid (subsequently recovering the jewels left behind)? The 2nd I've addressed above. To the 3rd I would offer an answer that is similar to [MENTION=16814]Ovinomancer[/MENTION]'s - why are we including stuff in the fiction that doesn't matter to play? On the 4th: in my GMing, the point of checks is to determine [I]how the fiction develops[/I], not to establish [I]uncertainty on the part of the players as to how the fiction is developing[/I]. On the 1st: I want to know what the PC is doing. I can't know how the ficiton will develop if I don't know what's happening in it. [/QUOTE]
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If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
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