Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Charlaquin" data-source="post: 7597777" data-attributes="member: 6779196"><p>At that point it's just semantics though. I would say that the outcome that follows naturally from its inciting action is still a resolution of that action, but if you prefer not to call it that, fine. If the consequences of your character's action follows naturally, that is preferable to that outcome needing to be resolved (by way of dice).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Essay might have been a bit of a lofty way to describe it, it was a brief excerpt from an interview. Here's what he said: "The element of suspense is giving the audience information. Now, you and I are sitting here. Suddenly a bomb goes off. Up we go, blown to smithereens. What did the audience have from watching this scene? 5 or 10 seconds of shock. Now, we do the scene over again, but we tell the audience there's a bomb underneath this table and it's going to go off in 5 minutes. Now this innocuous conversation about football becomes very potent. 'Don't talk about fooball, there's a bomb under there!' that's what they want to tell us. Then their anxieties will be as long as this clock ticks away."</p><p></p><p>Obviously he's discussing filmmaking here, where we're talking about RPGs, and specifically action resolution within RPGs. But what I think his point about information making the difference between shock and suspense is still very much applicable here. If the player (who is the audience for the RPG, excepting actual plays) doesn't know the potential consequences - or indeed, if there will even <em>be</em> a consequence - for their declared action, what to they get out of that? Maybe a moment of surprise, if they fail and experience an unexpected consequence. What to they get if they know the potential consequence? Well, now they have information. They know what's at stake, so the time between when the pick up the die, and when they see the result is now imbued with that tension and anxiety Hitchcock spoke of. And whether the outcome is success or failure, that releases the anticipation. If they succeed, they are relieved, if they fail, their anxiety is realized. Either way, this is the more dramatic experience, in my opinion.</p><p></p><p></p><p>This is a very different kind of drama than we're talking about though. You're talking about plot elements, I'm talking about immediate consequences of actions. I'm not advocating giving plot details away to the character, especially in a mystery scenario. I'm saying, don't hide the stakes from the character. Let them know what they're putting on the line in the moment, or its loss is only an unpleasant surprise instead of a release of dramatic tension.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Indeed, in gaming the audience is an active participant in the narrative, which forces us to address things a little differently than we would in a medium where the audience is a passive observer. That said, in that context I think it is still necessary for the audience to know what is at stake to create suspense.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The bolded section does not hold true for me. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Ok, but you can't know with 100% certainty that the player knows this. Telling them "If you fail, you'll fall, you sure you want to risk that?" is a simple matter that handily insures everyone is on the same page. If the player already expected their character to fall on a failure, no harm done, but if they didn't realize this was a potential risk, you avoid a potential dispute. For me, that's reason enough to give the player that reminder, and I really don't see any compelling reason not to. I don't think this is a situation where "it's more fun not to know" is a compelling argument in favor of not telling the player, because as you observe, it's likely pretty obvious, and on the off chance that the player doesn't realize their character might fall here, it's going to be an unpleasant surprise.</p><p></p><p></p><p>But that's not just a bit of narrative flair there, there is an actual meaningful difference between falling and the chandelier remaining up, or falling and the chandelier falling as well. If the chandelier falls, it's no longer up there for other characters to try and swing on, or to cut it and drop it on the heads of reinforcement guards that show up at the bottom, or whatever. The decision to make the chandelier fall isn't a purely aesthetic one, it has a very real impact on the players' future options.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure. Chances are, no one is going to make a stink about this outcome, even if they are a bit miffed by it. In the grand scheme of things, this is a really minor blip, not worth getting into an argument over. Most players aren't going to be bothered by this call, and those that are will most likely just roll their eyes and move on. But I still think that on the whole, reminding the players of the potential consequences of their actions, and designing scenarios not to hide that information from their characters, leads to an overall more satisfying experience. If you disagree, that's cool. Again, not telling you how to run your game, just telling you why I choose to run mine the way I do.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Charlaquin, post: 7597777, member: 6779196"] At that point it's just semantics though. I would say that the outcome that follows naturally from its inciting action is still a resolution of that action, but if you prefer not to call it that, fine. If the consequences of your character's action follows naturally, that is preferable to that outcome needing to be resolved (by way of dice). Essay might have been a bit of a lofty way to describe it, it was a brief excerpt from an interview. Here's what he said: "The element of suspense is giving the audience information. Now, you and I are sitting here. Suddenly a bomb goes off. Up we go, blown to smithereens. What did the audience have from watching this scene? 5 or 10 seconds of shock. Now, we do the scene over again, but we tell the audience there's a bomb underneath this table and it's going to go off in 5 minutes. Now this innocuous conversation about football becomes very potent. 'Don't talk about fooball, there's a bomb under there!' that's what they want to tell us. Then their anxieties will be as long as this clock ticks away." Obviously he's discussing filmmaking here, where we're talking about RPGs, and specifically action resolution within RPGs. But what I think his point about information making the difference between shock and suspense is still very much applicable here. If the player (who is the audience for the RPG, excepting actual plays) doesn't know the potential consequences - or indeed, if there will even [I]be[/I] a consequence - for their declared action, what to they get out of that? Maybe a moment of surprise, if they fail and experience an unexpected consequence. What to they get if they know the potential consequence? Well, now they have information. They know what's at stake, so the time between when the pick up the die, and when they see the result is now imbued with that tension and anxiety Hitchcock spoke of. And whether the outcome is success or failure, that releases the anticipation. If they succeed, they are relieved, if they fail, their anxiety is realized. Either way, this is the more dramatic experience, in my opinion. This is a very different kind of drama than we're talking about though. You're talking about plot elements, I'm talking about immediate consequences of actions. I'm not advocating giving plot details away to the character, especially in a mystery scenario. I'm saying, don't hide the stakes from the character. Let them know what they're putting on the line in the moment, or its loss is only an unpleasant surprise instead of a release of dramatic tension. Indeed, in gaming the audience is an active participant in the narrative, which forces us to address things a little differently than we would in a medium where the audience is a passive observer. That said, in that context I think it is still necessary for the audience to know what is at stake to create suspense. The bolded section does not hold true for me. Ok, but you can't know with 100% certainty that the player knows this. Telling them "If you fail, you'll fall, you sure you want to risk that?" is a simple matter that handily insures everyone is on the same page. If the player already expected their character to fall on a failure, no harm done, but if they didn't realize this was a potential risk, you avoid a potential dispute. For me, that's reason enough to give the player that reminder, and I really don't see any compelling reason not to. I don't think this is a situation where "it's more fun not to know" is a compelling argument in favor of not telling the player, because as you observe, it's likely pretty obvious, and on the off chance that the player doesn't realize their character might fall here, it's going to be an unpleasant surprise. But that's not just a bit of narrative flair there, there is an actual meaningful difference between falling and the chandelier remaining up, or falling and the chandelier falling as well. If the chandelier falls, it's no longer up there for other characters to try and swing on, or to cut it and drop it on the heads of reinforcement guards that show up at the bottom, or whatever. The decision to make the chandelier fall isn't a purely aesthetic one, it has a very real impact on the players' future options. Sure. Chances are, no one is going to make a stink about this outcome, even if they are a bit miffed by it. In the grand scheme of things, this is a really minor blip, not worth getting into an argument over. Most players aren't going to be bothered by this call, and those that are will most likely just roll their eyes and move on. But I still think that on the whole, reminding the players of the potential consequences of their actions, and designing scenarios not to hide that information from their characters, leads to an overall more satisfying experience. If you disagree, that's cool. Again, not telling you how to run your game, just telling you why I choose to run mine the way I do. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
If an NPC is telling the truth, what's the Insight DC to know they're telling the truth?
Top