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Improved Grab keeps killing PCs
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<blockquote data-quote="Lord Zardoz" data-source="post: 4788310" data-attributes="member: 704"><p>The 3rd Edition Grapple implementation was deeply flawed for two reasons. One is that it was a bit over complicated to work out. The other problem was the 'positive feedback', in that creatures that are meant to be good at grapple get way too many bonuses. Someone came along, wrote up an Owl Bear, or Behir, or whatever, and said 'this monsters gimmick is that it will grab opponents and bring the pain. It should have Improved Grab. That much is not a problem by its self.</p><p></p><p>But the rules for Grapple are to use Bab, Str Bonus, and Size modifier. Most of the monsters that are going to be good at grab (and are therefore given Improved Grab) are also larger than man size, and as melee Brute types, they have a good BaB and a high Str score.</p><p></p><p>And when you consider that it is implemented as an opposed roll, a typical melee fighter type can probably hold up against a high Bab and a good Str score in a grapple. But the PC characters will not have bonuses for size or improved grab, so they surrender anywhere from +4 to +16 difference depending on the beast. The PC can only win such an opposed roll if the PC rolls very well and the opponent rolls very poorly.</p><p></p><p>The solution is to either cut down on the bonus modifiers to grapple or to work out a different defense mechanism. I would probably first try using the size modifiers for grapple only on the defending roll. This makes it very difficult for a human to grapple an Ogre or Giant, without making the giants own grapple check overwhelming.</p><p></p><p>Also, even if you prefer 3rd edition, you can still steal their grab resolution mechanic of 'Str of Ref or Fort' defense, were which will give your PC's a half level base for the defense value, and add either Str or Con (for Fort) or Int or Dex (for Reflex).</p><p></p><p>END COMMUNICATION</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lord Zardoz, post: 4788310, member: 704"] The 3rd Edition Grapple implementation was deeply flawed for two reasons. One is that it was a bit over complicated to work out. The other problem was the 'positive feedback', in that creatures that are meant to be good at grapple get way too many bonuses. Someone came along, wrote up an Owl Bear, or Behir, or whatever, and said 'this monsters gimmick is that it will grab opponents and bring the pain. It should have Improved Grab. That much is not a problem by its self. But the rules for Grapple are to use Bab, Str Bonus, and Size modifier. Most of the monsters that are going to be good at grab (and are therefore given Improved Grab) are also larger than man size, and as melee Brute types, they have a good BaB and a high Str score. And when you consider that it is implemented as an opposed roll, a typical melee fighter type can probably hold up against a high Bab and a good Str score in a grapple. But the PC characters will not have bonuses for size or improved grab, so they surrender anywhere from +4 to +16 difference depending on the beast. The PC can only win such an opposed roll if the PC rolls very well and the opponent rolls very poorly. The solution is to either cut down on the bonus modifiers to grapple or to work out a different defense mechanism. I would probably first try using the size modifiers for grapple only on the defending roll. This makes it very difficult for a human to grapple an Ogre or Giant, without making the giants own grapple check overwhelming. Also, even if you prefer 3rd edition, you can still steal their grab resolution mechanic of 'Str of Ref or Fort' defense, were which will give your PC's a half level base for the defense value, and add either Str or Con (for Fort) or Int or Dex (for Reflex). END COMMUNICATION [/QUOTE]
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