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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
In Defense of 4E - a New Campaign Perspective
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<blockquote data-quote="Retreater" data-source="post: 7552357" data-attributes="member: 42040"><p><strong>"Bored" or "Board"?</strong></p><p></p><p>Lack of engagement at the table has been a growing issue in my 5th edition games. And speaking of 5E, maybe I should point out that since the release of 5E, I've run for nine groups comprised of mostly different players, meeting regularly. In addition to homebrewed adventures, I've run Hoard of the Dragon Queen, Lost Mine of Phandelver (3 times), Princes of the Apocalypse (2 times), Out of the Abyss (2 times), Tomb of Annihilation (2 times), and Storm King's Thunder. Even though this thread is mostly going to be about coming back to 4E and the changes I'm making to it, I'm currently running 2 different 5E games in addition to my two 4E games.</p><p></p><p>The lack of engagement isn't present at all times with all players, but I think part of it is that there aren't enough interesting things to do on a player's turn and between the player's turn, there is little that changes that involves the disinterested player. The phones come out. Out of character chatters begins. While it's the DM's responsibility to keep players focused and to set house rules about this, I think there's a bigger issue when DMs notice their players are getting bored.</p><p></p><p>My girlfriend has described 5E as "I move up, attack, swing my sword at a bag of hit points until one of us drops." I think that can describe the core 5E experience for players (and DMs) who don't elaborate actions outside the mechanics of the game. Sure, you can spice it up by saying "I lunge forward with my rapier, jabbing through the leather jerkin of the fierce goblin, who howls a curse between the blood pooling in his mouth." But this isn't making things mechanically interesting. It isn't really changing anything in the game other than the fluff text. </p><p></p><p>But what if you could attack the goblin, slide it into position to be flanked by the rogue, who is able to deliver a sneak attack on the following round? Or the fighter steps forward to issue a challenge so if the goblin attacks you on its turn, the fighter gets a free attack on the goblin to kill it? Both of these actions have occurred on other players' turns, and they dramatically impact your character's actions. Temporary buffs. Healing. Secondary attacks. Creatures that can trigger ferocious abilities on other players' turns. These are all common features of the 4E design paradigm. And you'd better be paying attention - this isn't a passive game! Every player's turn can be exciting, and it's rarely "I'm going to spam this single attack every turn."</p><p></p><p>My experience is that this leads to heightened player engagement.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Retreater, post: 7552357, member: 42040"] [B]"Bored" or "Board"?[/B] Lack of engagement at the table has been a growing issue in my 5th edition games. And speaking of 5E, maybe I should point out that since the release of 5E, I've run for nine groups comprised of mostly different players, meeting regularly. In addition to homebrewed adventures, I've run Hoard of the Dragon Queen, Lost Mine of Phandelver (3 times), Princes of the Apocalypse (2 times), Out of the Abyss (2 times), Tomb of Annihilation (2 times), and Storm King's Thunder. Even though this thread is mostly going to be about coming back to 4E and the changes I'm making to it, I'm currently running 2 different 5E games in addition to my two 4E games. The lack of engagement isn't present at all times with all players, but I think part of it is that there aren't enough interesting things to do on a player's turn and between the player's turn, there is little that changes that involves the disinterested player. The phones come out. Out of character chatters begins. While it's the DM's responsibility to keep players focused and to set house rules about this, I think there's a bigger issue when DMs notice their players are getting bored. My girlfriend has described 5E as "I move up, attack, swing my sword at a bag of hit points until one of us drops." I think that can describe the core 5E experience for players (and DMs) who don't elaborate actions outside the mechanics of the game. Sure, you can spice it up by saying "I lunge forward with my rapier, jabbing through the leather jerkin of the fierce goblin, who howls a curse between the blood pooling in his mouth." But this isn't making things mechanically interesting. It isn't really changing anything in the game other than the fluff text. But what if you could attack the goblin, slide it into position to be flanked by the rogue, who is able to deliver a sneak attack on the following round? Or the fighter steps forward to issue a challenge so if the goblin attacks you on its turn, the fighter gets a free attack on the goblin to kill it? Both of these actions have occurred on other players' turns, and they dramatically impact your character's actions. Temporary buffs. Healing. Secondary attacks. Creatures that can trigger ferocious abilities on other players' turns. These are all common features of the 4E design paradigm. And you'd better be paying attention - this isn't a passive game! Every player's turn can be exciting, and it's rarely "I'm going to spam this single attack every turn." My experience is that this leads to heightened player engagement. [/QUOTE]
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