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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
In Defense of 4E - a New Campaign Perspective
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<blockquote data-quote="Retreater" data-source="post: 7552496" data-attributes="member: 42040"><p>I understand your complaints. I think any edition of the game - or any media for that matter - assumes a certain level of suspension of disbelief. Any edition of the game has had monsters/opponents who function under different rules and had different abilities. Even in 5E we see kobolds with pack tactics, hobgoblins with phalanx fighting, dragons with recharging breath weapons, liches with frightening gaze attacks. Yet I don't think I've seen players complaining that these creatures bend the rules to challenge the characters. It just comes down to how much you're willing to accept. For me, my limit is: "Does it make the game fun and exciting? Does it cut down on my workload, as DM, when I don't have to follow PC creation rules to make NPC villains?" </p><p></p><p>And minions - I love them. I think they fill an important role in the game which no other edition has been able to answer: How do you make a big epic combat with many opponents without bogging down the game and let characters feel badass when defeating them but still have them be challenging? Bonded accuracy has tried to answer this in 5E by making goblins still challenging at slightly higher levels. But I've found they're not quite challenging enough.</p><p></p><p>And granted, you're facing Ogre minions when you're pretty high level, if I remember. A 15th level hero facing an ogre from previous editions will find it weaker and less of a challenge than a 15th level ogre minion in 4E, so I don't understand the weakness argument. Especially in 3.x edition that ogre wouldn't be able to hit a high level fighter, and a high level fireball would toast an entire room of them. So this is just keeping things mechanically interesting.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Retreater, post: 7552496, member: 42040"] I understand your complaints. I think any edition of the game - or any media for that matter - assumes a certain level of suspension of disbelief. Any edition of the game has had monsters/opponents who function under different rules and had different abilities. Even in 5E we see kobolds with pack tactics, hobgoblins with phalanx fighting, dragons with recharging breath weapons, liches with frightening gaze attacks. Yet I don't think I've seen players complaining that these creatures bend the rules to challenge the characters. It just comes down to how much you're willing to accept. For me, my limit is: "Does it make the game fun and exciting? Does it cut down on my workload, as DM, when I don't have to follow PC creation rules to make NPC villains?" And minions - I love them. I think they fill an important role in the game which no other edition has been able to answer: How do you make a big epic combat with many opponents without bogging down the game and let characters feel badass when defeating them but still have them be challenging? Bonded accuracy has tried to answer this in 5E by making goblins still challenging at slightly higher levels. But I've found they're not quite challenging enough. And granted, you're facing Ogre minions when you're pretty high level, if I remember. A 15th level hero facing an ogre from previous editions will find it weaker and less of a challenge than a 15th level ogre minion in 4E, so I don't understand the weakness argument. Especially in 3.x edition that ogre wouldn't be able to hit a high level fighter, and a high level fireball would toast an entire room of them. So this is just keeping things mechanically interesting. [/QUOTE]
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