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Incarnum in Pathfinder
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<blockquote data-quote="Chronologist" data-source="post: 5385193" data-attributes="member: 81796"><p>Thanks for taking a look at it Paradox42, that means a lot to me.</p><p></p><p>No, I haven't playtested them yet, though I plan to next time I play. I design character a lot in my spare time, so I think I'm a pretty good judge of these things, and they look really fun. My only concern is the Incarnum Radiance ability, for some reason it kinda feels weird. The new abilities give a lot of versatility, but they only actually start being really fun at later levels. Maybe the duration could go up, or the bonuses could be spread out more? What if the alternate abilities had more of a smooth, linear progression once you got them?</p><p></p><p>I never found Soulmelds very powerful to begin with, mostly because their primary function is utility and skill bonuses which are easily replicated by spells and magical items. Come on, an Incarnate investing 4 essentia at 12th level to get a +10 bonus to Acrobatics checks from a soulmeld could honestly be done better by a level 1 Arcane spell... that just feels kind of sad. Sure, some of the soulmelds would get pretty ridiculous (like Spellward Shirt), and some of the feats could get pretty nasty too, but if you tone them down to, say, 1/2 their original effect, increaing the maximum essentia pool by 250% balanced them out, and makes the utility powers more fun.</p><p></p><p>In my ideal Incarnum system, a 6th level Incarnate with Airstep Sandals should be leaping over huge gaps, switching to Lightning Gauntlets mid-jump, tossing some Lucky Dice (in and out of game), and blasting his opponents with a ranged Necrocarnum Touch for 4d8 damage. Now THAT is awesome. THAT is the stuff that tabletop legends are made of. THAT is how you create a fun and creative gaming experience.</p><p></p><p>I don't feel like any of the incarnum classes should be at Wizard strength for attack damage. I usually design classes and characters that don't have casting to be able to deal about as much damage as an Eldritch Blast. That keeps them usefu, but not overpowering. With an essentia cap of 1/2 ML, rounded up, the Incarnate should lag behind to that degree as well.</p><p></p><p>For power, I'm really treating the Incarnate like a Warlock. They're utility pseudo-magical characters, who customize themselves from a list of abilities, and they slowly gain access to stronger upgrades for their abilities. They can take a hit, and fight okay, but they excel in their versatility and, more importantly, on the fact that their powers never run out.</p><p></p><p>For the Necrocarnate, I had an interesting idea. Basically, let Meldshapers select which order they want their Chakra Bind slots in. Rather than getting 2 or even 3 at a time, give them a slow but steady progression. As I said, they gain one least (crown, hands, or feet) at level 1, 2, and 4, they gain one lesser (arms, brow, or shoulders) at level 6, 8, and 10, and they gain one greater (throat, heart, or waist) at level 12, 14, and 16. They get Soul chakra binds at 18th level, leaving space for an awesome capstone.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I never liked that Necrocarnate was a prestige class, and a 13 level one at that. Why even make a prestige class that long? You're only 7 levels away from making it a full class, and a parallel idea has been done for arcane magic (the Dread Necromancer from 3.5 Heroes of Horror). THis version of the Necrocarnate keeps the abilities at a moderate pace, while balancing the Harvest of Souls class feature.</p><p></p><p>Sure, at 1st level Necrocarnate (PrC), you could only get 1 point of essentia from the target, but if you decide to wipe out the village you're in before the dungeon crawl... you'd be surprised how many level 1 and 2 commoners there are in a hamlet. At that point, the class feature was cool, but a DM nightmare.</p><p></p><p>Now, it keeps the feature balanced, creating a maximum amount of "Necrocarnum" you can have at a given time, putting you on par with the Incarnate. In return, you start at 0 at the beginning of the day, meaning it takes you a couple rounds of soul-sucking action to fill up. That feels AWESOME from a player and a DM perspective. The player likes it because it's a fairly strong power that makes them stronger, and the DM likes it because it means that there'll be at least one member of the party just itching for a fight, thus speeding up all that pre-dungeon planning.</p><p></p><p>So, comparing your Incarnate and my Necrocarnate, the Incarnate is more party-friendly, has more beneficial class features, and is really good at using a variety of Soulmelds. The Necrocarnate is better at soloing, with Necrocarnum Zombies, an infinite use melee touch attack, and many defensive Necrocarnum Soulmelds. The Necrocarnate is also a little more lax in the alignment department, so as long as you're not good, you can embody a number of philosophies, including true neutrality.</p><p></p><p>I'd say that the two classes are about the same strength, but personally, I would give the Incarnate some bonus feats every one in a while, essentia-only, and I'd give the Necrocarnate medium attack bonus and d8 hit dice. Necrocarnates might fall more into the role of evil cleric in the Incarnum universe... it's at least something to think about.</p><p></p><p>Thanks for reading, I can't wait to hear more comments!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chronologist, post: 5385193, member: 81796"] Thanks for taking a look at it Paradox42, that means a lot to me. No, I haven't playtested them yet, though I plan to next time I play. I design character a lot in my spare time, so I think I'm a pretty good judge of these things, and they look really fun. My only concern is the Incarnum Radiance ability, for some reason it kinda feels weird. The new abilities give a lot of versatility, but they only actually start being really fun at later levels. Maybe the duration could go up, or the bonuses could be spread out more? What if the alternate abilities had more of a smooth, linear progression once you got them? I never found Soulmelds very powerful to begin with, mostly because their primary function is utility and skill bonuses which are easily replicated by spells and magical items. Come on, an Incarnate investing 4 essentia at 12th level to get a +10 bonus to Acrobatics checks from a soulmeld could honestly be done better by a level 1 Arcane spell... that just feels kind of sad. Sure, some of the soulmelds would get pretty ridiculous (like Spellward Shirt), and some of the feats could get pretty nasty too, but if you tone them down to, say, 1/2 their original effect, increaing the maximum essentia pool by 250% balanced them out, and makes the utility powers more fun. In my ideal Incarnum system, a 6th level Incarnate with Airstep Sandals should be leaping over huge gaps, switching to Lightning Gauntlets mid-jump, tossing some Lucky Dice (in and out of game), and blasting his opponents with a ranged Necrocarnum Touch for 4d8 damage. Now THAT is awesome. THAT is the stuff that tabletop legends are made of. THAT is how you create a fun and creative gaming experience. I don't feel like any of the incarnum classes should be at Wizard strength for attack damage. I usually design classes and characters that don't have casting to be able to deal about as much damage as an Eldritch Blast. That keeps them usefu, but not overpowering. With an essentia cap of 1/2 ML, rounded up, the Incarnate should lag behind to that degree as well. For power, I'm really treating the Incarnate like a Warlock. They're utility pseudo-magical characters, who customize themselves from a list of abilities, and they slowly gain access to stronger upgrades for their abilities. They can take a hit, and fight okay, but they excel in their versatility and, more importantly, on the fact that their powers never run out. For the Necrocarnate, I had an interesting idea. Basically, let Meldshapers select which order they want their Chakra Bind slots in. Rather than getting 2 or even 3 at a time, give them a slow but steady progression. As I said, they gain one least (crown, hands, or feet) at level 1, 2, and 4, they gain one lesser (arms, brow, or shoulders) at level 6, 8, and 10, and they gain one greater (throat, heart, or waist) at level 12, 14, and 16. They get Soul chakra binds at 18th level, leaving space for an awesome capstone. I never liked that Necrocarnate was a prestige class, and a 13 level one at that. Why even make a prestige class that long? You're only 7 levels away from making it a full class, and a parallel idea has been done for arcane magic (the Dread Necromancer from 3.5 Heroes of Horror). THis version of the Necrocarnate keeps the abilities at a moderate pace, while balancing the Harvest of Souls class feature. Sure, at 1st level Necrocarnate (PrC), you could only get 1 point of essentia from the target, but if you decide to wipe out the village you're in before the dungeon crawl... you'd be surprised how many level 1 and 2 commoners there are in a hamlet. At that point, the class feature was cool, but a DM nightmare. Now, it keeps the feature balanced, creating a maximum amount of "Necrocarnum" you can have at a given time, putting you on par with the Incarnate. In return, you start at 0 at the beginning of the day, meaning it takes you a couple rounds of soul-sucking action to fill up. That feels AWESOME from a player and a DM perspective. The player likes it because it's a fairly strong power that makes them stronger, and the DM likes it because it means that there'll be at least one member of the party just itching for a fight, thus speeding up all that pre-dungeon planning. So, comparing your Incarnate and my Necrocarnate, the Incarnate is more party-friendly, has more beneficial class features, and is really good at using a variety of Soulmelds. The Necrocarnate is better at soloing, with Necrocarnum Zombies, an infinite use melee touch attack, and many defensive Necrocarnum Soulmelds. The Necrocarnate is also a little more lax in the alignment department, so as long as you're not good, you can embody a number of philosophies, including true neutrality. I'd say that the two classes are about the same strength, but personally, I would give the Incarnate some bonus feats every one in a while, essentia-only, and I'd give the Necrocarnate medium attack bonus and d8 hit dice. Necrocarnates might fall more into the role of evil cleric in the Incarnum universe... it's at least something to think about. Thanks for reading, I can't wait to hear more comments! [/QUOTE]
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