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Incarnum in Pathfinder
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<blockquote data-quote="paradox42" data-source="post: 5386112" data-attributes="member: 29746"><p>Point of order; you also voiced a desire to see higher essentia caps and a few other things, so it's not your <strong>only</strong> concern. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p> </p><p>As for being "fun," this is a subjective thing, and honestly difficult to evaluate before trying them out. I can say from my own playtest experience that, although the mobility boost (from Aura of Action) doesn't look like much, it's been very helpful to the party more than once, and my character consistently being the fastest party member has been quite fun on more than one occasion. A few sessions ago, he actually got a <strong>base ground speed</strong> (and he's Azurin/Human, mind you) of <strong>95 feet</strong> per move action, without even being a Monk. This was as a newly-minted 9th-level character who hadn't even been given time to redo his soulmelds yet. Now it's true he had a <em>Haste</em> from the party Wizard, as did all the other party members, but even so- he chased down an enemy that had fled combat three rounds prior (and therefore had a 3-round head start), and did it in one measly round. That was cool. Small effects can add up quickly if carefully stacked.</p><p> </p><p>But on the subject of Incarnum Radiance effects, did you have further suggestions? We based the duration on the Barbarian Rage and Bardic Performance, since it's substantially the same sort of ability; many of those effects don't scale linearly but rather in steps, too.</p><p> </p><p>Also, on the subject of duration, since we did pattern the Radiance ability on Barbarian Rage and Bardic Performance, we're assuming the existence of a feat called <strong>Extra Radiance</strong> which would grant extra rounds per day- just like those two abilities get. My playtest guy hasn't gotten said feat yet, but that's largely because he's had so many other things to spend feats on (for example, Split Chakra (Shoulders) at 9th so he could continue to use his Cloak of Resistance without affecting his ability to use soulmelds like Mantle of Flame).</p><p> </p><p></p><p>This is a mistake made by many, many people, and it's another unfortunate thing with the presentation of Incarnum. I had the same dismissive reaction upon first reading the book, but I later saw <a href="http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870566/Incarnate_by_the_numbers" target="_blank">an analysis on the Wizards boards</a> that broke it all down by number and level- and quickly changed my tune.</p><p> </p><p>But to save you reading the entire thread to get an answer to your argument, consider the following counterpoints: first, your 12th-level Incarnate isn't necessarily using that soulmeld on a skill he has no ranks in; if he has the maximum 12 ranks (under PF) and it's a class skill, that's +15 before we even add his ability bonus- let alone the soulmeld. Assume a class skill, and conservative ability bonus of +2, and maxed-out ranks, and that 4 essentia investment gets him a bonus of +27. At 12th level. That's not bad at all.</p><p> </p><p>But we can do even better: because, perhaps most crucially, <em>the soulmelds all give strange bonus types like competence or insight which magic and items rarely if ever use</em>. +10 is a relatively small bonus, yes, but when you consider that it almost certainly stacks with the bonus his magic items or the buffs cast by other party members are giving him, it starts to look better. Consider also that, unlike spells and many of the skill-boosting magic items (which tend to be expendable, like Elixirs of Vision or Feather Tokens), the soulmelds last as long as the meldshaper wants them to. They are, in other words, like the Warlock rather than the Wizard.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>Again, fun is subjective- but with Incarnum the effects of the rules really are quite subtle. One has to read soulmelds not in a vacuum, but figure out how to stack them with other things to make a whole- <strong>that's</strong> where the true power lies.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>Don't need Airstep. Acrobat Boots will do just fine. My playtest character had a long combat, early in his 7th level, wherein he used Acrobat Boots to great effect chasing a flying enemy by leaping from rooftop to rooftop in the town the combat was taking place within. Gaps of 30 feet were literally no issue for him, because he had maxed-out ranks in Acrobatics, and maxed-out his essentia investment in the Boots, as well as the bonus to Jump granted by high movement speed (Incarnum Radiance for the win). After my first roll clearing a gap, the GM didn't even have me roll any more during the chase.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>Switch what to Lightning Gauntlets? Why not have both shaped at the same time, since they're completely different chakras? And what use are the Lucky Dice in this scenario (did you notice that their bonus doesn't scale, but essentia investment only alters the duration of the bonus they grant)?</p><p> </p><p>Legends are a matter of perspective, is what I'm getting at. Numbers only tell part of the story, particularly when the numbers (as in Incarnum) are designed to stack with other numbers.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>Perfectly fair. Especially since, for most of their soulmelds, if you assume a maximum essentia investment using the existing essentia cap of about 1/6 level, it works out to look very much like the Warlock. Incarnate's a little behind at the highest levels, but Incarnate's really not designed to look like a blaster or Arcane caster anyway- he's really a lot more like a Cleric. And Clerics are not known for being blasters, in a typical game.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>Yes, I noticed. It's a good idea at least to try out, though IMO the Heart Chakra shouldn't be lumped in with the other two. If you read the soulmelds carefully, it's clear rather quickly that the Heart abilities tend to be better/more powerful than any Throat or Waist abilities. This means that if you give them the ability to select between the three, the player is essentially an idiot if he doesn't take Heart before either of the others. That's bad design on principle; a "must-take" option is usually a signal of something that's too good and needs to be toned down somehow. That's why the Heart is given several levels later than Waist and Throat in those classes that get it.</p><p> </p><p>I have other comments on the Necrocarnate, but feel they should be separated out into their own post for clarity. That'll come later, since I'm running out of time here now. The above comment wasn't <em>really</em> about the Necrocarnate, since the idea of flexible Chakra opening is worth exploring in general.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="paradox42, post: 5386112, member: 29746"] Point of order; you also voiced a desire to see higher essentia caps and a few other things, so it's not your [B]only[/B] concern. ;) As for being "fun," this is a subjective thing, and honestly difficult to evaluate before trying them out. I can say from my own playtest experience that, although the mobility boost (from Aura of Action) doesn't look like much, it's been very helpful to the party more than once, and my character consistently being the fastest party member has been quite fun on more than one occasion. A few sessions ago, he actually got a [B]base ground speed[/B] (and he's Azurin/Human, mind you) of [B]95 feet[/B] per move action, without even being a Monk. This was as a newly-minted 9th-level character who hadn't even been given time to redo his soulmelds yet. Now it's true he had a [I]Haste[/I] from the party Wizard, as did all the other party members, but even so- he chased down an enemy that had fled combat three rounds prior (and therefore had a 3-round head start), and did it in one measly round. That was cool. Small effects can add up quickly if carefully stacked. But on the subject of Incarnum Radiance effects, did you have further suggestions? We based the duration on the Barbarian Rage and Bardic Performance, since it's substantially the same sort of ability; many of those effects don't scale linearly but rather in steps, too. Also, on the subject of duration, since we did pattern the Radiance ability on Barbarian Rage and Bardic Performance, we're assuming the existence of a feat called [B]Extra Radiance[/B] which would grant extra rounds per day- just like those two abilities get. My playtest guy hasn't gotten said feat yet, but that's largely because he's had so many other things to spend feats on (for example, Split Chakra (Shoulders) at 9th so he could continue to use his Cloak of Resistance without affecting his ability to use soulmelds like Mantle of Flame). This is a mistake made by many, many people, and it's another unfortunate thing with the presentation of Incarnum. I had the same dismissive reaction upon first reading the book, but I later saw [URL=http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870566/Incarnate_by_the_numbers]an analysis on the Wizards boards[/URL] that broke it all down by number and level- and quickly changed my tune. But to save you reading the entire thread to get an answer to your argument, consider the following counterpoints: first, your 12th-level Incarnate isn't necessarily using that soulmeld on a skill he has no ranks in; if he has the maximum 12 ranks (under PF) and it's a class skill, that's +15 before we even add his ability bonus- let alone the soulmeld. Assume a class skill, and conservative ability bonus of +2, and maxed-out ranks, and that 4 essentia investment gets him a bonus of +27. At 12th level. That's not bad at all. But we can do even better: because, perhaps most crucially, [I]the soulmelds all give strange bonus types like competence or insight which magic and items rarely if ever use[/I]. +10 is a relatively small bonus, yes, but when you consider that it almost certainly stacks with the bonus his magic items or the buffs cast by other party members are giving him, it starts to look better. Consider also that, unlike spells and many of the skill-boosting magic items (which tend to be expendable, like Elixirs of Vision or Feather Tokens), the soulmelds last as long as the meldshaper wants them to. They are, in other words, like the Warlock rather than the Wizard. Again, fun is subjective- but with Incarnum the effects of the rules really are quite subtle. One has to read soulmelds not in a vacuum, but figure out how to stack them with other things to make a whole- [B]that's[/B] where the true power lies. Don't need Airstep. Acrobat Boots will do just fine. My playtest character had a long combat, early in his 7th level, wherein he used Acrobat Boots to great effect chasing a flying enemy by leaping from rooftop to rooftop in the town the combat was taking place within. Gaps of 30 feet were literally no issue for him, because he had maxed-out ranks in Acrobatics, and maxed-out his essentia investment in the Boots, as well as the bonus to Jump granted by high movement speed (Incarnum Radiance for the win). After my first roll clearing a gap, the GM didn't even have me roll any more during the chase. Switch what to Lightning Gauntlets? Why not have both shaped at the same time, since they're completely different chakras? And what use are the Lucky Dice in this scenario (did you notice that their bonus doesn't scale, but essentia investment only alters the duration of the bonus they grant)? Legends are a matter of perspective, is what I'm getting at. Numbers only tell part of the story, particularly when the numbers (as in Incarnum) are designed to stack with other numbers. Perfectly fair. Especially since, for most of their soulmelds, if you assume a maximum essentia investment using the existing essentia cap of about 1/6 level, it works out to look very much like the Warlock. Incarnate's a little behind at the highest levels, but Incarnate's really not designed to look like a blaster or Arcane caster anyway- he's really a lot more like a Cleric. And Clerics are not known for being blasters, in a typical game. Yes, I noticed. It's a good idea at least to try out, though IMO the Heart Chakra shouldn't be lumped in with the other two. If you read the soulmelds carefully, it's clear rather quickly that the Heart abilities tend to be better/more powerful than any Throat or Waist abilities. This means that if you give them the ability to select between the three, the player is essentially an idiot if he doesn't take Heart before either of the others. That's bad design on principle; a "must-take" option is usually a signal of something that's too good and needs to be toned down somehow. That's why the Heart is given several levels later than Waist and Throat in those classes that get it. I have other comments on the Necrocarnate, but feel they should be separated out into their own post for clarity. That'll come later, since I'm running out of time here now. The above comment wasn't [I]really[/I] about the Necrocarnate, since the idea of flexible Chakra opening is worth exploring in general. [/QUOTE]
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