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Incarnum in Pathfinder
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<blockquote data-quote="paradox42" data-source="post: 5388866" data-attributes="member: 29746"><p>It may be worth making a new post about the Necrocarnate with the changes, but of course you can just edit the original if you prefer. Anyway, those two do need description just to be sure.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Makes the math nasty, it's worth noting in advance. Also, if you do it this way, should the "Necrosentia" only be available for melds that are on the Necrocarnate list, or which the Necrocarnate took Shape Soulmeld for (with a Necrocarnate level)?</p><p></p><p></p><p>The feats are good, though IMO the Necrocarnate's unique class melds should be pretty damn good to compensate for paying a feat tax to be able to power up outside of combat. Alternatively, the Necrocarnate list should consist of mostly combat-focused melds, with little utility, so the Necrocarnate would usually not need to bother powering up outside of combat. Perhaps the Necrocarnate has an expanded skill list compared with the Incarnate; Intimidate, for example, is an obvious addition.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Interesting</strong> idea! No other meldshaper doesn't know all of its class soulmelds at 1st level. That would be another way in which the Necrocarnate is distinguished from the rest. Of course, this again begs the question of what its class soulmelds actually <strong>are</strong>, since in a situation like this they should definitely be more focused than the soulmelds of the other classes. Or, they should offer a few obvious "paths of knowledge" to explore with the limited access to soulmelds. That would make the Shape Soulmeld feat more valuable to Necrocarnates than to others, too.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You don't. Necrocarnum melds are all [Evil], however, which means that a non-Evil character needs the feat to be able to access them at all. That's what the feat's for. The question of why a Good-aligned version of Necrocarnum was never created, was pretty much answered (in the consensus analysis) by "Good characters have Vow of Poverty." Seriously, Vow of Poverty is a really, really obvious combination with Incarnum in 3.5. A PF GM would have to consider the feat carefully before allowing it, obviously.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If you're still looking to increase the essentia cap, that could work well- certainly it looks more like the 4E version of caster level (as I recall- I haven't actually opened my 4E books in a year or so).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, if you feel you really need to change the essentia caps, there's more work to do. I myself don't plan on changing them; rather my intent is to balance new melds and classes based on the original essentia cap table. But that's me. Other GMs can and will define the caps as they wish for their own settings.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Spittle can be shaped and used at level 1. Incarnum is different from all other supernatural classes in that very critical respect: <strong>all</strong> soulmelds can be used even at level 1. The "level-based" powers are defined by chakra for that reason, in the game balance sense. That's what the chakras are for, really. Examine the list of Foundationist soulmelds closely and you'll see we were very careful about when various powers become accessible, by level. It's the only level-based control available for Incarnum, other than essentia capacity.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, our approaches differ- yours (based on the above) appears to try to pigeonhole the Incarnate into a 4E-type Role, and downplay or ignore the class's ability to be something else. But the original class, as designed, was actually one of the most versatile and protean classes available under 3.X, such that it could fulfill several Roles (though not Controller) depending on the actual build the player chose.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Certainly, a LN Necrocarnate could exist. Your description provides the perfect motivation for one. It's just that by the <em>Magic of Incarnum</em> rules, a LN Incarnate needs the Necrocarnum Acolyte feat to be able to use Necrocarnum soulmelds, since they're all [Evil]-aligned. The Necrocarnate base class really shouldn't have that restriction, IMO- they should have the equivalent of Acolyte at 1st level somehow (whether as a bonus feat or by rewriting the rules for how they interact with aligned soulmelds). Either way works, really.</p><p></p><p>The existing Necrocarnum soulmelds don't use all of the basic Chakras, not even counting the Totem Chakra since Totemists don't use Necrocarnum. They miss Feet, Brow, and Shoulders, but hit all the rest. It's just that two of the Necrocarnum melds can be shaped on (and bound to) two Chakras, you see. That fact partly confuses the issue. But this shouldn't stop one from coming up with new Necrocarnum melds, if one makes a Necrocarnate base class- if anything, quite the reverse is true! A Necrocarnate base class should be able to do things with Necrocarnum that no other class can do (without paying an appropriate feat tax at least). One just needs to be careful that the new melds accentuate the designated role of the Necrocarnate rather than any other meldshaper class.</p><p></p><p>So, if the Necrocarnate is supposed to be a blaster, or at any rate a secondary blaster, then it should have soulmelds to show that.</p><p></p><p>I would suggest the following for an initial stab at the Necrocarnate class soulmeld list:</p><p><strong>(from Incarnate)</strong></p><p>Adamant Pauldrons</p><p>Airstep Sandals</p><p>Apparition Ribbon</p><p>Arcane Focus</p><p>Bloodwar Gauntlets</p><p>Dissolving Spittle</p><p>Enigma Helm</p><p>Fellmist Robe</p><p>Illusion Veil</p><p>Impulse Boots</p><p>Keeneye Lenses</p><p>Lucky Dice</p><p>Mantle of Flame</p><p>Necrocarnum Circlet</p><p>Necrocarnum Mantle</p><p>Necrocarnum Shroud</p><p>Necrocarnum Touch</p><p>Necrocarnum Vestments</p><p>Necrocarnum Weapon</p><p>Pauldrons of Health</p><p>Silvertongue Mask</p><p>Soulspark Familiar</p><p>Spellward Shirt</p><p>Strongheart Vest</p><p>Theft Gloves</p><p>Truthseeker Goggles</p><p>Vitality Belt</p><p>Wind Cloak</p><p><strong>(from Soulborn list)</strong></p><p>Fearsome Mask</p><p>Gloves of the Poisoned Soul</p><p>Mauling Gauntlets</p><p><strong>(from Totemist list)</strong></p><p>Ankheg Breastplate</p><p>Bloodtalons</p><p>Dread Carapace</p><p>Frost Helm</p><p>Krenshar Mask</p><p>Kruthik Claws</p><p>Lamia Belt</p><p>Rageclaws</p><p>Shadow Mantle</p><p>Winter Mask</p><p><strong>(from Foundationist list)</strong></p><p>Feet of Clay</p><p>Ocher Shirt</p><p>Smoke Skirt</p><p>Steaming Veil</p><p>Voidmask</p><p></p><p>That's 46 total melds, if my counting is correct, which is a pretty good number for a meldshaping base class. To bring it up to par with the other three "full meldshaper" classes (i.e., not Soulborn but including Foundationist), somewhere between 5 and 10 new soulmelds should be added to the list. They could probably all be Necrocarnum melds, given how few there are to add, though if you disagree with some of my choices above the number might change of course. Each meld on the above list, if removed, should be replaced with another one (whether from an existing list or a new one). The existing full-meldshaper classes all have 50 or more soulmelds (if you include melds from sources other than <em>Magic of Incarnum</em>, I should remark in fairness- none of them actually even hits 50 if you use just <em>MoI</em>). Soulborn doesn't, but Soulborn is a half-meldshaper class so doesn't really count (compare the Paladin spell list to Cleric for a good example of why).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="paradox42, post: 5388866, member: 29746"] It may be worth making a new post about the Necrocarnate with the changes, but of course you can just edit the original if you prefer. Anyway, those two do need description just to be sure. Makes the math nasty, it's worth noting in advance. Also, if you do it this way, should the "Necrosentia" only be available for melds that are on the Necrocarnate list, or which the Necrocarnate took Shape Soulmeld for (with a Necrocarnate level)? The feats are good, though IMO the Necrocarnate's unique class melds should be pretty damn good to compensate for paying a feat tax to be able to power up outside of combat. Alternatively, the Necrocarnate list should consist of mostly combat-focused melds, with little utility, so the Necrocarnate would usually not need to bother powering up outside of combat. Perhaps the Necrocarnate has an expanded skill list compared with the Incarnate; Intimidate, for example, is an obvious addition. [B]Interesting[/B] idea! No other meldshaper doesn't know all of its class soulmelds at 1st level. That would be another way in which the Necrocarnate is distinguished from the rest. Of course, this again begs the question of what its class soulmelds actually [B]are[/B], since in a situation like this they should definitely be more focused than the soulmelds of the other classes. Or, they should offer a few obvious "paths of knowledge" to explore with the limited access to soulmelds. That would make the Shape Soulmeld feat more valuable to Necrocarnates than to others, too. You don't. Necrocarnum melds are all [Evil], however, which means that a non-Evil character needs the feat to be able to access them at all. That's what the feat's for. The question of why a Good-aligned version of Necrocarnum was never created, was pretty much answered (in the consensus analysis) by "Good characters have Vow of Poverty." Seriously, Vow of Poverty is a really, really obvious combination with Incarnum in 3.5. A PF GM would have to consider the feat carefully before allowing it, obviously. If you're still looking to increase the essentia cap, that could work well- certainly it looks more like the 4E version of caster level (as I recall- I haven't actually opened my 4E books in a year or so). Again, if you feel you really need to change the essentia caps, there's more work to do. I myself don't plan on changing them; rather my intent is to balance new melds and classes based on the original essentia cap table. But that's me. Other GMs can and will define the caps as they wish for their own settings. Spittle can be shaped and used at level 1. Incarnum is different from all other supernatural classes in that very critical respect: [B]all[/B] soulmelds can be used even at level 1. The "level-based" powers are defined by chakra for that reason, in the game balance sense. That's what the chakras are for, really. Examine the list of Foundationist soulmelds closely and you'll see we were very careful about when various powers become accessible, by level. It's the only level-based control available for Incarnum, other than essentia capacity. Yes, our approaches differ- yours (based on the above) appears to try to pigeonhole the Incarnate into a 4E-type Role, and downplay or ignore the class's ability to be something else. But the original class, as designed, was actually one of the most versatile and protean classes available under 3.X, such that it could fulfill several Roles (though not Controller) depending on the actual build the player chose. Certainly, a LN Necrocarnate could exist. Your description provides the perfect motivation for one. It's just that by the [I]Magic of Incarnum[/I] rules, a LN Incarnate needs the Necrocarnum Acolyte feat to be able to use Necrocarnum soulmelds, since they're all [Evil]-aligned. The Necrocarnate base class really shouldn't have that restriction, IMO- they should have the equivalent of Acolyte at 1st level somehow (whether as a bonus feat or by rewriting the rules for how they interact with aligned soulmelds). Either way works, really. The existing Necrocarnum soulmelds don't use all of the basic Chakras, not even counting the Totem Chakra since Totemists don't use Necrocarnum. They miss Feet, Brow, and Shoulders, but hit all the rest. It's just that two of the Necrocarnum melds can be shaped on (and bound to) two Chakras, you see. That fact partly confuses the issue. But this shouldn't stop one from coming up with new Necrocarnum melds, if one makes a Necrocarnate base class- if anything, quite the reverse is true! A Necrocarnate base class should be able to do things with Necrocarnum that no other class can do (without paying an appropriate feat tax at least). One just needs to be careful that the new melds accentuate the designated role of the Necrocarnate rather than any other meldshaper class. So, if the Necrocarnate is supposed to be a blaster, or at any rate a secondary blaster, then it should have soulmelds to show that. I would suggest the following for an initial stab at the Necrocarnate class soulmeld list: [B](from Incarnate)[/B] Adamant Pauldrons Airstep Sandals Apparition Ribbon Arcane Focus Bloodwar Gauntlets Dissolving Spittle Enigma Helm Fellmist Robe Illusion Veil Impulse Boots Keeneye Lenses Lucky Dice Mantle of Flame Necrocarnum Circlet Necrocarnum Mantle Necrocarnum Shroud Necrocarnum Touch Necrocarnum Vestments Necrocarnum Weapon Pauldrons of Health Silvertongue Mask Soulspark Familiar Spellward Shirt Strongheart Vest Theft Gloves Truthseeker Goggles Vitality Belt Wind Cloak [B](from Soulborn list)[/B] Fearsome Mask Gloves of the Poisoned Soul Mauling Gauntlets [B](from Totemist list)[/B] Ankheg Breastplate Bloodtalons Dread Carapace Frost Helm Krenshar Mask Kruthik Claws Lamia Belt Rageclaws Shadow Mantle Winter Mask [B](from Foundationist list)[/B] Feet of Clay Ocher Shirt Smoke Skirt Steaming Veil Voidmask That's 46 total melds, if my counting is correct, which is a pretty good number for a meldshaping base class. To bring it up to par with the other three "full meldshaper" classes (i.e., not Soulborn but including Foundationist), somewhere between 5 and 10 new soulmelds should be added to the list. They could probably all be Necrocarnum melds, given how few there are to add, though if you disagree with some of my choices above the number might change of course. Each meld on the above list, if removed, should be replaced with another one (whether from an existing list or a new one). The existing full-meldshaper classes all have 50 or more soulmelds (if you include melds from sources other than [I]Magic of Incarnum[/I], I should remark in fairness- none of them actually even hits 50 if you use just [I]MoI[/I]). Soulborn doesn't, but Soulborn is a half-meldshaper class so doesn't really count (compare the Paladin spell list to Cleric for a good example of why). [/QUOTE]
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