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Incarnum in Pathfinder
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<blockquote data-quote="paradox42" data-source="post: 5389758" data-attributes="member: 29746"><p>No big deal. Any post made by you, you can just click "Edit" at the bottom of it and it opens up the editing window exactly like the one you typed the post into in the first place. And then you edit. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p> </p><p></p><p>The devil is in the details, with class design. Always with the details. The questions I asked above need to be answered either way.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>...Not following your logic there. Why <strong>not</strong> give them Intimidate? How is it a powerful enough boost to add that one skill that they shouldn't get it? And what does that have to do with giving the touch attack additional benefits?</p><p> </p><p>As for such benefits, it could be used to base other class features off of, certainly; in fact that's what I'd thought Trap the Soul would be- something like "any creature killed by your Necro Touch cannot be raised or resurrected without first using a <em>Limited Wish</em> (at first). At X level, a full <em>Wish</em> or <em>Miracle</em> must be used before the victim can be raised." That sort of boilerplate.</p><p> </p><p>See how the Cleric gets stuff based off of Channel for a likely starting point. In fact, that brings up another possibility: maybe the extras don't come as class features, but instead as feats. Like Turn Undead.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>If you check the soulmelds I listed above, you'll see that that's exactly the sort of themes I gave them, in most cases. I also added a few utility melds like Keeneye Lenses that would be useful against Undead, figuring that some Necrocarnates might actually specialize in <strong>hunting</strong> Undead rather than making them- but that's certainly not set in stone. Taking out those utility melds would certainly shorten the list a bit. And of course, there is a fourth base class to choose melds from, which had a lot of new ones- the Foundationist. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p> </p><p>There is, of course, valid argument for not using many of the ones I listed due to the fact that although they have powers that fit the Necrocarnate, they also have powers that really don't- in this case it might be wise to keep the list of soulmelds taken out of the list for this reason so they can be used as guides to create new ones. Honestly, I don't see much reason to make a specific set of new soulmelds with special rules (as the Necrocarnum melds have); you could certainly create a bunch of new ones that happen to have the word "Midnight" as part of their names, but making special new rules for them is very probably overkill.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>I disagree on the Controller aspect of Incarnate; otherwise we appear to agree although you have to admit that Totemist has a strong secondary role as a Blaster since so many of their melds cause energy damage. Casters have few powers outside of their actual spells; meldshapers (at any rate, the "full" meldshapers) similarly have few powers beyond their soulmeld selection.</p><p> </p><p>If Necrocarnate is to be a Blaster, it will likely need to make many new melds or at least borrow several from the existing classes that fit the role- namely Totemist and Foundationist. I tried to do this in my selection, sticking deliberately to Acid and Cold damage mostly (though I added Mantle of Flame purely for its fluff; the idea of a Necrocarnate shaping a soulmeld crafted from souls which literally burn for revenge just fits the class perfectly IMHO).</p><p> </p><p></p><p>...Do you actually have <em>Magic of Incarnum</em>? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite5" alt=":confused:" title="Confused :confused:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":confused:" /> There's no such thing as a Legs Chakra. Also, soulmelds by design don't fit over existing magic items unless you take the Split Chakra feat, so confusing the issue by describing the soulmeld as "fitting over existing footwear" is not a good idea IMO.</p><p> </p><p>That said, I like the base power; the ability to move a step without provoking AOOs is unique and cool, fitting the stealth theme very well. Granting a kick attack is <strong>not</strong> what I would have chosen for the Feet, since it goes against the stealth idea; instead I'd probably extend that power to move through spaces without provoking (for example, you get an extra such space per point of essentia). Perhaps instead of Legs, tie that immunity power to the Waist, and that could work well for a second Chakra here. In that case Feet should of course be different, though I'm still not really liking the Kick attack much- it just feels off-theme for the class somehow (to me at least).</p><p> </p><p>Also, The skill bonus should be +(4+2E), since it only affects one skill; most melds that affect fewer skills grant the larger bonus.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>That Shoulders bind power is too strong. No other Incarnum power comes close to that, especially since it lets you effectively stay permanently invisible as long as you wait out the minute. Admittedly, if you attack right away, you have to wait 9 rounds before you can do it again, but still there should be some other limit on it. I'd suggest that one get some clause in it about the meld unshaping after the power is used for a long enough time period- say, after (ML) minutes or something.</p><p> </p><p></p><p>See above. Keep in mind that by your own alignment restrictions before, a Necrocarnate will not necessarily be Evil; however, I certainly agree that the general theme of subtlety fits the Necrocarnate quite well (in the sense of stealth, darkness, invisibility, and illusion). So it's a good addition if that Shoulders power is fixed.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="paradox42, post: 5389758, member: 29746"] No big deal. Any post made by you, you can just click "Edit" at the bottom of it and it opens up the editing window exactly like the one you typed the post into in the first place. And then you edit. :) The devil is in the details, with class design. Always with the details. The questions I asked above need to be answered either way. ...Not following your logic there. Why [B]not[/B] give them Intimidate? How is it a powerful enough boost to add that one skill that they shouldn't get it? And what does that have to do with giving the touch attack additional benefits? As for such benefits, it could be used to base other class features off of, certainly; in fact that's what I'd thought Trap the Soul would be- something like "any creature killed by your Necro Touch cannot be raised or resurrected without first using a [I]Limited Wish[/I] (at first). At X level, a full [I]Wish[/I] or [I]Miracle[/I] must be used before the victim can be raised." That sort of boilerplate. See how the Cleric gets stuff based off of Channel for a likely starting point. In fact, that brings up another possibility: maybe the extras don't come as class features, but instead as feats. Like Turn Undead. If you check the soulmelds I listed above, you'll see that that's exactly the sort of themes I gave them, in most cases. I also added a few utility melds like Keeneye Lenses that would be useful against Undead, figuring that some Necrocarnates might actually specialize in [B]hunting[/B] Undead rather than making them- but that's certainly not set in stone. Taking out those utility melds would certainly shorten the list a bit. And of course, there is a fourth base class to choose melds from, which had a lot of new ones- the Foundationist. ;) There is, of course, valid argument for not using many of the ones I listed due to the fact that although they have powers that fit the Necrocarnate, they also have powers that really don't- in this case it might be wise to keep the list of soulmelds taken out of the list for this reason so they can be used as guides to create new ones. Honestly, I don't see much reason to make a specific set of new soulmelds with special rules (as the Necrocarnum melds have); you could certainly create a bunch of new ones that happen to have the word "Midnight" as part of their names, but making special new rules for them is very probably overkill. I disagree on the Controller aspect of Incarnate; otherwise we appear to agree although you have to admit that Totemist has a strong secondary role as a Blaster since so many of their melds cause energy damage. Casters have few powers outside of their actual spells; meldshapers (at any rate, the "full" meldshapers) similarly have few powers beyond their soulmeld selection. If Necrocarnate is to be a Blaster, it will likely need to make many new melds or at least borrow several from the existing classes that fit the role- namely Totemist and Foundationist. I tried to do this in my selection, sticking deliberately to Acid and Cold damage mostly (though I added Mantle of Flame purely for its fluff; the idea of a Necrocarnate shaping a soulmeld crafted from souls which literally burn for revenge just fits the class perfectly IMHO). ...Do you actually have [I]Magic of Incarnum[/I]? :confused: There's no such thing as a Legs Chakra. Also, soulmelds by design don't fit over existing magic items unless you take the Split Chakra feat, so confusing the issue by describing the soulmeld as "fitting over existing footwear" is not a good idea IMO. That said, I like the base power; the ability to move a step without provoking AOOs is unique and cool, fitting the stealth theme very well. Granting a kick attack is [B]not[/B] what I would have chosen for the Feet, since it goes against the stealth idea; instead I'd probably extend that power to move through spaces without provoking (for example, you get an extra such space per point of essentia). Perhaps instead of Legs, tie that immunity power to the Waist, and that could work well for a second Chakra here. In that case Feet should of course be different, though I'm still not really liking the Kick attack much- it just feels off-theme for the class somehow (to me at least). Also, The skill bonus should be +(4+2E), since it only affects one skill; most melds that affect fewer skills grant the larger bonus. That Shoulders bind power is too strong. No other Incarnum power comes close to that, especially since it lets you effectively stay permanently invisible as long as you wait out the minute. Admittedly, if you attack right away, you have to wait 9 rounds before you can do it again, but still there should be some other limit on it. I'd suggest that one get some clause in it about the meld unshaping after the power is used for a long enough time period- say, after (ML) minutes or something. See above. Keep in mind that by your own alignment restrictions before, a Necrocarnate will not necessarily be Evil; however, I certainly agree that the general theme of subtlety fits the Necrocarnate quite well (in the sense of stealth, darkness, invisibility, and illusion). So it's a good addition if that Shoulders power is fixed. [/QUOTE]
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