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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Invading the castle:Small rooms, small fights, and 4e
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<blockquote data-quote="Larrin" data-source="post: 6268935" data-attributes="member: 55816"><p>So I'm running the "scourge of the Sword Coast" for a 4e group, and several of the scenes involve clearing out castles or towns or whatever in a series of what I would call "Small rooms, small fights" where your have about 14 smallish rooms connected by long halls, and you probably might have 3-4 monsters in about half the rooms, with reinforcements or traps or some other hook. This is very traditional for D&D in general, but in general not how 4e does its best work. I've never included it in my DMing of 4e. I'd like to try it though. I know 4e catches bad press for its long fights, and for being BAD at exactly this sort of thing, so I'm eager to adapt it to making it work. I estimate it would take 4e at least four times as long (probably more) to run this sort of adventure using standard rules and monsters, and it wouldn't be very interesting.</p><p></p><p>I'd like any input people have regarding using 4e in this way, both advice and ideas, but also if you've gotten it work for your table OR how it all went wrong. I'll be sticking with 4e no matter what, but I'm VERY open to alternative rules, winging it, trying something that doesn't work well at first, etc. I make all monsters on the fly using math, so adjusting hitpoints, etc is certainly an option. That being said, I will NOT simply be doing it as a skill challenge, that holds no appeal to me, and likely none at my table. It should be a combat system.</p><p></p><p></p><p>HERE ARE MY THOUGHTS SO FAR:</p><p>My experience with other systems (3.5, 5e, pathfinder, as a player only) in this sort of environment is that each room is ~2 rounds of fighting. The PCs get worn down a little, hit a few big fights, and then have a nice showdown with the boss at the end. I like the flow of this.</p><p></p><p>Why this works for other systems, but not 4e:</p><p> --Since these systems have essentially no encounter recharges, there is not an obvious advantage/disadvantage to having many short fights versus one longer one</p><p>--resting between fights only needs to be as long as it takes to chug a potion or cast a spell. Less need to worry about patrols finding you.</p><p>--monsters die faster: having hp=(1d8+con per level) means that if PCs are doing 1d8+str dmg, monster level is more or less equal to the number hits to kill them, but even a level 3 can go down on one good hit.</p><p>--movement and positioning are less of an assumption, so small rooms are fine.</p><p>--4e cares greatly about number of encounters, 5 minute rests, monsters that take ~4 hits to kill at any level (for non-strikers using at wills), and people moving all over the place. Great for the final battle scene, not great for this. </p><p></p><p>My goal is for the process to (in order of importance):</p><p>1) make them feel like they are exploring a castle room by room, not just zipping through a castle and stopping in two really big rooms for two traditional 4e encounters. </p><p>2) not waste the players time with needless fights or needlessly long fights. (this is of course in direct competition with #1).</p><p>3) make them feel as though they are "under-the-gun" and can't spend too much time resting</p><p>4) let them feel like they are still getting to use character abilities (encounter powers) regularly.</p><p>5) Keep rule changes mostly on my side of the screen. They shouldn't need to change how powers work.</p><p></p><p>Thanks for any input y'all might have.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Larrin, post: 6268935, member: 55816"] So I'm running the "scourge of the Sword Coast" for a 4e group, and several of the scenes involve clearing out castles or towns or whatever in a series of what I would call "Small rooms, small fights" where your have about 14 smallish rooms connected by long halls, and you probably might have 3-4 monsters in about half the rooms, with reinforcements or traps or some other hook. This is very traditional for D&D in general, but in general not how 4e does its best work. I've never included it in my DMing of 4e. I'd like to try it though. I know 4e catches bad press for its long fights, and for being BAD at exactly this sort of thing, so I'm eager to adapt it to making it work. I estimate it would take 4e at least four times as long (probably more) to run this sort of adventure using standard rules and monsters, and it wouldn't be very interesting. I'd like any input people have regarding using 4e in this way, both advice and ideas, but also if you've gotten it work for your table OR how it all went wrong. I'll be sticking with 4e no matter what, but I'm VERY open to alternative rules, winging it, trying something that doesn't work well at first, etc. I make all monsters on the fly using math, so adjusting hitpoints, etc is certainly an option. That being said, I will NOT simply be doing it as a skill challenge, that holds no appeal to me, and likely none at my table. It should be a combat system. HERE ARE MY THOUGHTS SO FAR: My experience with other systems (3.5, 5e, pathfinder, as a player only) in this sort of environment is that each room is ~2 rounds of fighting. The PCs get worn down a little, hit a few big fights, and then have a nice showdown with the boss at the end. I like the flow of this. Why this works for other systems, but not 4e: --Since these systems have essentially no encounter recharges, there is not an obvious advantage/disadvantage to having many short fights versus one longer one --resting between fights only needs to be as long as it takes to chug a potion or cast a spell. Less need to worry about patrols finding you. --monsters die faster: having hp=(1d8+con per level) means that if PCs are doing 1d8+str dmg, monster level is more or less equal to the number hits to kill them, but even a level 3 can go down on one good hit. --movement and positioning are less of an assumption, so small rooms are fine. --4e cares greatly about number of encounters, 5 minute rests, monsters that take ~4 hits to kill at any level (for non-strikers using at wills), and people moving all over the place. Great for the final battle scene, not great for this. My goal is for the process to (in order of importance): 1) make them feel like they are exploring a castle room by room, not just zipping through a castle and stopping in two really big rooms for two traditional 4e encounters. 2) not waste the players time with needless fights or needlessly long fights. (this is of course in direct competition with #1). 3) make them feel as though they are "under-the-gun" and can't spend too much time resting 4) let them feel like they are still getting to use character abilities (encounter powers) regularly. 5) Keep rule changes mostly on my side of the screen. They shouldn't need to change how powers work. Thanks for any input y'all might have. [/QUOTE]
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