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Invsibility vs Cloak of Elvenkind
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<blockquote data-quote="ClearlyTough69" data-source="post: 7057429" data-attributes="member: 6864123"><p>I think this gets to the heart of much of the confusion about hiding and perception; this, and what you know about a creature's location if you detect it but can't see it. I've tussled with these problems for months. </p><p></p><p>My eureka moment was to break down the analysis of a Perception check into its component senses. I use one Perception check result for all senses, but analyse each sense in turn. I'll illustrate by example: </p><p></p><p>1. A rogue is trying to sneak past a ranger out in the open at twilight (which lightly obscures normal vision). Her Stealth check result is 13.</p><p></p><p>2. Can the ranger <em>see</em> the rogue in the twilight? No, because his Perception check suffers disadvantage because the rogue is lightly obscured, giving a result of 10. OK, now we know the rogue is unseen, so whatever else happens, the rules for unseen attackers and targets apply (advantage and disadvantage on attack rolls).</p><p></p><p>3. Can the ranger <em>hear </em>the rogue? Yes, because the obscurement of twilight does not affect hearing, so there's no disadvantage applied to the Perception check, giving a result of 15. Now we know that the ranger is aware of the rogue (so can't be surprised), and knows her exact position so she is no longer hidden (by RAW). The rogue remains unseen. </p><p></p><p>You might think this approach makes hearing a more useful sense than sight, but that is to forget the power of the unseen attacker/ target mechanic. My approach does make it harder to be surprised than the approach of automatically applying disadvantage to Perception checks that rely on hearing, but it works for me.</p><p></p><p>PS I said 'by RAW' earlier because I think it's too strong that hearing - or smell for that matter - can pinpoint a creature's exact position to an unlimited range: they just don't have the precision of sight. At my table the limits are 30 and 10 feet respectively; beyond that you can determine a creature's general whereabouts but not its exact position (so you have to guess at which square on the grid to attack, for example).</p><p></p><p>EDITED to make clear I am illustrating by example</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ClearlyTough69, post: 7057429, member: 6864123"] I think this gets to the heart of much of the confusion about hiding and perception; this, and what you know about a creature's location if you detect it but can't see it. I've tussled with these problems for months. My eureka moment was to break down the analysis of a Perception check into its component senses. I use one Perception check result for all senses, but analyse each sense in turn. I'll illustrate by example: 1. A rogue is trying to sneak past a ranger out in the open at twilight (which lightly obscures normal vision). Her Stealth check result is 13. 2. Can the ranger [I]see[/I] the rogue in the twilight? No, because his Perception check suffers disadvantage because the rogue is lightly obscured, giving a result of 10. OK, now we know the rogue is unseen, so whatever else happens, the rules for unseen attackers and targets apply (advantage and disadvantage on attack rolls). 3. Can the ranger [I]hear [/I]the rogue? Yes, because the obscurement of twilight does not affect hearing, so there's no disadvantage applied to the Perception check, giving a result of 15. Now we know that the ranger is aware of the rogue (so can't be surprised), and knows her exact position so she is no longer hidden (by RAW). The rogue remains unseen. You might think this approach makes hearing a more useful sense than sight, but that is to forget the power of the unseen attacker/ target mechanic. My approach does make it harder to be surprised than the approach of automatically applying disadvantage to Perception checks that rely on hearing, but it works for me. PS I said 'by RAW' earlier because I think it's too strong that hearing - or smell for that matter - can pinpoint a creature's exact position to an unlimited range: they just don't have the precision of sight. At my table the limits are 30 and 10 feet respectively; beyond that you can determine a creature's general whereabouts but not its exact position (so you have to guess at which square on the grid to attack, for example). EDITED to make clear I am illustrating by example [/QUOTE]
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