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<blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 1302657" data-attributes="member: 2020"><p><strong>(2nd Post) Thread One of the 1st IR</strong></p><p></p><p>Lannon</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-04-2001 10:58 PM </p><p></p><p> Oh please the war isnt over yet. I dont think covert operations is going to simply shut down a massive</p><p> operation like an industrial revolution. How about all these other countries that figure out how wonderful it is</p><p> to suddenly be outproducing, outfarming, and generally outperforming all the other countries that are still</p><p> relying on their few mages for power and the backs of their peasants. Heck lets say that they start mass</p><p> producing... dong dong dong guns! And then they start shooting mages, fighters and other pesky</p><p> adventurers. And when they go to battle with other nations they bring those same guns along... It would be</p><p> a real mess if a well equipped group of men with guns faced a well equipped group of men with swords... </p><p></p><p> All those bloody, dying men, would be wishing their country was taking part in this marvelous industrial</p><p> revolution that puts explosives akin to magic into the hands of the common footsoldier. And one elf! Some</p><p> little elf that is breaking in and burning papers and has no idea what is going on. Well why not set up some</p><p> interesting problems for him too. Why not hire our own mages, we can sell them their own guns, then the</p><p> mage can fire off his spells and pump a quarter inch ball into the gut of the closest fighter. Come to think of</p><p> it, that mage might just appreciate that nifty little gun. Furthermore, if we can just harness the damage</p><p> capacity of these nifty little bullets, maybe we can get some casings on them... </p><p></p><p> If you have the industrial revolution kiss your non industrial revolutioned butt good bye. Magic really isnt</p><p> going to save you, not when the vast majority of people dont have it, and not when the production capacity</p><p> of these gnomes will vastly outperform that of even a thousand mages. I can just see it, the gnomes,</p><p> pumping up their machines to produce instruments of destruction that any person can use. Any peasant now</p><p> has the capability of a low level fighter. And all those poor mages trying desperately and expensively to</p><p> create wands and staves. But those mages know its already doomed because they and their comrades will</p><p> be the only ones that can use them. "We cant just train the commoners to wield magical staves and wands</p><p> me-lord. Its these damn guns! All the explosion of magic and any fool from the fields can shoot down one</p><p> of my best troops! And that is after a single day of training!".</p><p></p><p> The problems just go on and on and on. No one has considered retaliation from the states that have</p><p> embraced the revolution. These are just some ideas...</p><p></p><p>33</p><p></p><p> TheBalor</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-04-2001 11:23 PM </p><p></p><p> Out-perform mages? Lessee...any number of mage spells can stop bullets, kill you instantly, destroy entire</p><p> cities in a few hours, defy all laws of physics effortlessly, mend any item instantly, bring people BACK TO</p><p> LIFE (wish or clone), need I go on? I REALLY doubt that guns are more destructive than say, cloudkill or</p><p> Power word:kill. Let ALONE pre revelutionary war guns..</p><p></p><p> ------------------</p><p> You have obviously exceeded your lowborn heritage and surged to the vanguard of goonery-Edwin</p><p> Odeisseron</p><p></p><p> [This message has been edited by TheBalor (edited 04-04-2001).]</p><p></p><p>34</p><p></p><p> Victim</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-04-2001 11:24 PM </p><p></p><p> Protection from arrows works against guns. </p><p></p><p> The primary advantage of guns is ease of use. Ease of doesn't matter much in a DnD world as the HP, AC,</p><p> and DR on many monsters are too much for normal weapons to defeat. A unit of men with primitive guns</p><p> would probably be less effective than the same unit with cross bows. Guns, especially the inaccurate,</p><p> unreliable and slow ones, aren't exactly the ultimate weapon. I can't see how getting shot with gun would be</p><p> much worse than a bow. Look in the DMG, good firearms are rated at D12, not the magical kill</p><p> anything/anyone weapons that you make them out to be.</p><p></p><p> Even if the guns were as effective as you believe, AoE spells and mass charm/suggestion would cause your</p><p> army to explode or shoot each other. How many of those peasents with a day of training would make save</p><p> against web, sleep or color spray, let alone powerful magics. Or simple illusion that wastes all your limited</p><p> ammo. </p><p></p><p> How would the industrial society support itself? With druids around, not many people have worked out</p><p> amazing farming techniques. Probably the only reason Faerun can support its current urban population is</p><p> because of druids. How many people in your cities starve when the crops aren't enhanced?</p><p></p><p> Of course, people make the assumption that an industrial revolution would be accepted. You believe that</p><p> many nations would embrace technology because its advantages. I doubt it. It isn't needed and there is no</p><p> pressure for it. The greeks could have begun an industrial revolution but didn't. If the greek's didn't want or</p><p> need an industrial revolution, then why would a world rich in magic need one?</p><p></p><p> Not to mention the fact an industrial, consumer society faced with certain foes is completely helpless. After</p><p> magic is abandoned, who can stop a mind flayer? Outsiders? Dragons? How could they even know what they</p><p> face? Who would be prepared to resist these external threats?</p><p></p><p>35</p><p></p><p> TheBalor</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-04-2001 11:32 PM </p><p></p><p> *takes deep breath* Dragon scales are harder than reinforced steel, and more resistant according to type.</p><p> What do you do against etheral opponents? And ONE DAY OF TRAINING? Don't make me laugh. A policeman</p><p> can hit a moving target 1 out of 10 times, and that's with a modern day glock or magnum. Now, if I just</p><p> hand a peasant a flint lock(at best) and tell him how to reload, fire, etc.,etc., he'll miss about a million</p><p> times. If I were a level 2 mage, I could kill that guy with a magic missle, not to mention screw up his aim</p><p> with illusions, go etheral, or just use a stoneskin, he'll be dead.dead.dead.</p><p></p><p>36</p><p></p><p> Abbas</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-04-2001 11:51 PM </p><p></p><p> Hmm, why is it stopped?</p><p></p><p> What we have are a number of Elves, mostly out of world and by the time most of them would recognize the</p><p> facts and really do something the Gnomes would have had a few hundred years and Stealth Bombers,</p><p> nuclear rockets...</p><p></p><p> But to come back to Gnomes nature, they wouldn't start to build great Railroads. They would have an 'Iron</p><p> horse' around their village, be pleased and do something else. </p><p> Dwarves are Ingenieurs, Gnomes are Scientists. </p><p> They don't produce useful things, they produce things, because they want to know if they function.</p><p> Same with Gnomish Magic, Illusions are the most facinating kind of Magic.</p><p></p><p>37</p><p></p><p> Lannon</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-05-2001 12:00 AM </p><p></p><p></p><p> quote:</p><p></p><p> Originally posted by Victim:</p><p> Protection from arrows works against guns. </p><p></p><p> The primary advantage of guns is ease of use. Ease of doesn't matter much in a DnD world as</p><p> the HP, AC, and DR on many monsters are too much for normal weapons to defeat. A unit of</p><p> men with primitive guns would probably be less effective than the same unit with cross bows.</p><p> Guns, especially the inaccurate, unreliable and slow ones, aren't exactly the ultimate</p><p> weapon. I can't see how getting shot with gun would be much worse than a bow. Look in the</p><p> DMG, good firearms are rated at D12, not the magical kill anything/anyone weapons that</p><p> you make them out to be.</p><p></p><p> < The reason is range and armor penetration my friend. If you have not considered teh</p><p> effects of armor penetration in your argument then you are completely ignoring why these</p><p> weapons immediatly outclassed heavily armored knights></p><p></p><p> Even if the guns were as effective as you believe, AoE spells and mass charm/suggestion</p><p> would cause your army to explode or shoot each other. How many of those peasents with a</p><p> day of training would make save against web, sleep or color spray, let alone powerful magics.</p><p> Or simple illusion that wastes all your limited ammo. </p><p></p><p></p><p> How would the industrial society support itself? With druids around, not many people have</p><p> worked out amazing farming techniques. Probably the only reason Faerun can support its</p><p> current urban population is because of druids. How many people in your cities starve when</p><p> the crops aren't enhanced?</p><p></p><p> Of course, people make the assumption that an industrial revolution would be accepted. You</p><p> believe that many nations would embrace technology because its advantages. I doubt it. It</p><p> isn't needed and there is no pressure for it. The greeks could have begun an industrial</p><p> revolution but didn't. If the greek's didn't want or need an industrial revolution, then why</p><p> would a world rich in magic need one?</p><p></p><p> Not to mention the fact an industrial, consumer society faced with certain foes is completely</p><p> helpless. After magic is abandoned, who can stop a mind flayer? Outsiders? Dragons? How</p><p> could they even know what they face? Who would be prepared to resist these external</p><p> threats?</p><p></p><p></p><p> How are they helpless. Build newer and better explosives. Build bigger guns. Shoot some cannons at the</p><p> Dragon. Blow up the mind flayer. Have your own mages enchant your guns. Are you daft man there isnt any</p><p> need to kill all the mages, only fools that are trying to hurt the revolution!</p><p></p><p> As for the fellow that talked about actually shooting someone with a gun. Its different hitting a moving</p><p> target with one bullet when that person is moving all around. It is another story when taht same man is</p><p> about ten feet away and closing fast. Any fool with a gun will shoot you flat in the chest at that range. Dont</p><p> tell me it wouldnt happen.</p><p></p><p>38</p><p></p><p> TheBalor</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-05-2001 12:19 AM </p><p></p><p> *salivates over the idea of a enchanted, +5 vorpal AK-47*</p><p></p><p> ------------------</p><p> You have obviously exceeded your lowborn heritage and surged to the vanguard of goonery-Edwin</p><p> Odeisseron</p><p></p><p>39</p><p></p><p> Lannon</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-05-2001 12:20 AM </p><p></p><p></p><p> quote:</p><p></p><p> Originally posted by Victim:</p><p> Protection from arrows works against guns. </p><p></p><p> The primary advantage of guns is ease of use. Ease of doesn't matter much in a DnD world as</p><p> the HP, AC, and DR on many monsters are too much for normal weapons to defeat. A unit of</p><p> men with primitive guns would probably be less effective than the same unit with cross bows.</p><p> Guns, especially the inaccurate, unreliable and slow ones, aren't exactly the ultimate</p><p> weapon. I can't see how getting shot with gun would be much worse than a bow. Look in the</p><p> DMG, good firearms are rated at D12, not the magical kill anything/anyone weapons that</p><p> you make them out to be.</p><p></p><p> Even if the guns were as effective as you believe, AoE spells and mass charm/suggestion</p><p> would cause your army to explode or shoot each other. How many of those peasents with a</p><p> day of training would make save against web, sleep or color spray, let alone powerful magics.</p><p> Or simple illusion that wastes all your limited ammo. </p><p></p><p> How would the industrial society support itself? With druids around, not many people have</p><p> worked out amazing farming techniques. Probably the only reason Faerun can support its</p><p> current urban population is because of druids. How many people in your cities starve when</p><p> the crops aren't enhanced?</p><p></p><p> Of course, people make the assumption that an industrial revolution would be accepted. You</p><p> believe that many nations would embrace technology because its advantages. I doubt it. It</p><p> isn't needed and there is no pressure for it. The greeks could have begun an industrial</p><p> revolution but didn't. If the greek's didn't want or need an industrial revolution, then why</p><p> would a world rich in magic need one?</p><p></p><p> Not to mention the fact an industrial, consumer society faced with certain foes is completely</p><p> helpless. After magic is abandoned, who can stop a mind flayer? Outsiders? Dragons? How</p><p> could they even know what they face? Who would be prepared to resist these external</p><p> threats?</p><p></p><p></p><p> I dont know why but part of my response was deleted. </p><p></p><p> You meantion spells. Well why dont the industrial nations hire their own wizards to combat those of the other</p><p> nations? Why not have their mages keep the other mages busy. In the meantime the foot soldiers with</p><p> their nifty guns can shoot the armor off the poor fools with swords and make a mess out of archers with</p><p> volleys of high powered shot. Why not let a wonderful archane archer have fun empowering the shots for a</p><p> musket? All the arguments you make about magic come to nothing. The industrial nation does not have to</p><p> abandon magic. They simply will use it in a different way. Enchanted cannon and muskets, or gasp cartridge</p><p> loaded weaponry would make short work of those dragons and illithids. </p><p></p><p> Suddenly the fighter is gone, replaced by glorious alternity with joe shmoe firing shots from his hip and</p><p> mowing down morons in plate armor with his machine gun.</p><p></p><p> As for the problem with druids. Why dont the gnomes have the druids taken out? Why not hire some kindly</p><p> adventurers to take out those nasty barbarians that are killing men out in the fields. Why these are hard</p><p> working peasants that are simply trying to earn a good days labor. Something needs to be done!</p><p> Furthermore, who needs a druid when increased production due to the incorporation of new technology is</p><p> possible? dont forget that the industrial revolution inspired advances in farming as well. Those advances in</p><p> farming were enough to feed the growing populations of an industrialized nation. Another side note, terrorist</p><p> groups do not win wars.</p><p></p><p>40</p><p></p><p> TheBalor</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-05-2001 12:50 AM </p><p></p><p> Gah...I'm starting to lean towards the more magi-tech side(anyone here played FF3/6?) Umm...Lannon, why</p><p> do you feel you need to kill the druids and barbs? I think that they could work with the new farming</p><p> technology. Think about it; plant growth improved with technology, and then doubled with the spell plant</p><p> growth. Ya just seem a bit extreme...</p><p></p><p> ------------------</p><p> You have obviously exceeded your lowborn heritage and surged to the vanguard of goonery-Edwin</p><p> Odeisseron</p><p></p><p>41</p><p></p><p> Lannon</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-05-2001 01:07 AM </p><p></p><p></p><p> quote:</p><p></p><p> Originally posted by TheBalor:</p><p> Gah...I'm starting to lean towards the more magi-tech side(anyone here played FF3/6?)</p><p> Umm...Lannon, why do you feel you need to kill the druids and barbs? I think that they could</p><p> work with the new farming technology. Think about it; plant growth improved with</p><p> technology, and then doubled with the spell plant growth. Ya just seem a bit extreme...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> They dont need to be killed. However druids are more concerned with the balance of nature. That being the</p><p> case, stripping the land for resources and improving farming techniques by savaging the land would</p><p> probably arouse their attention and force some confrontation. Now, if they want to cooperate and perhaps</p><p> live within some designated "Wild Zones" maybe something could be worked out .</p><p></p><p>42</p><p></p><p> Gez</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-05-2001 04:59 AM </p><p></p><p> Edena, please, answer me...</p><p> Read my previous post (on page one) and tell me WHY there would be a war. Yep, why ?</p><p></p><p> Because Elves and Druids are a bunch of genociding idiots that want to kill all gnomes at the slightiest</p><p> pretext ?</p><p></p><p> Because the OOC knowledge that pollutions kill animals and induce global warming is magically granted to</p><p> just everyone (but not those silly self-claiming "True Good" Gnome) ?</p><p></p><p> Because it would be impossible to mix magic and technology to create clean and reliable machinery to</p><p> everyone ?</p><p></p><p> Try to be consistant. A permanently Heated metal container can boil water without need for burning carbon.</p><p> A photoelectric cell can be forever alimented by a Continual Flame. There's just so much ways of having a</p><p> pollution-free industry in a magic world.</p><p></p><p> And even if you create waste, you can destroy them forever (look at Bottomless Pit in R&R for a low-level</p><p> way of disposing of garbage).</p><p></p><p> With the appropriate precautions, a railroad is of strictly no harms for nature: have it pass on bridges (like a</p><p> highway), so that animals pass below it without risks. No black smoke, because the vapor is produced by</p><p> throwing water from an Endless Decanter in a Permanently Heated chamber.</p><p></p><p> Lots of people on this thread acted like rampaging luddites, thirsty for gnome blood. Why so much hate ? (I</p><p> have to start a thread called "Hey guys, why do u hate gnomes ?")</p><p></p><p> Use your Int score, and your Wis score. An industrimagical revolution is not a bad, evil thing.</p><p></p><p> For those who claim that it will raise Gond's power over those of other gods. Not entirely true. He will sure be</p><p> raised in power, but as a god of invention and innovations, as soon as something becomes old-tech it's no</p><p> more in his domain. Compare it with Mystra's grasp over all magic. Gond would be about as important as</p><p> Mystra in power, but no greater.</p><p></p><p> Don't forget several other gods have claim over craft and tools (particularly in the Dwarven and Gnome</p><p> pantheon).</p><p></p><p> Furthermore, an industrial revolution would give more power to existing god. Akadi can become the</p><p> patroness of Planes and Zeppelins, for example. Shaundakul, or other travel-deity could also have claims</p><p> over vehicles. War gods can take claim over guns and firearms: a Torm worshipping soldier will not convert</p><p> to the cult of the Wonderbringer because he want to use a gun.</p><p></p><p> And other deity will emerge. Look at war: it's something that interest lots of people, so they are lots of war</p><p> gods. Once industry interest lots of people, new industry gods will emerge.</p><p></p><p> Dareoon Dalandrove</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-05-2001 06:08 AM </p><p></p><p> Has anyone read the book The Jackal of Nar? I think if you wanted to add some of these advanced</p><p> technologies but keep the medieval feel this is a good model. The most brilliant engineering and scientific</p><p> mind is a short little guy too!</p><p></p><p> ------------------</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p> Hey...luck is just one of my many skills.</p><p></p><p> Rincewind</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-05-2001 06:54 AM </p><p></p><p> Go check out the Mondus Fumus setting in the Whereabouts boards... the technology there is a fusion of</p><p> tech and magic (musket with an extradimensional space to store bullets). I'm bumping it now.</p><p></p><p> Edena_of_Neith</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-05-2001 07:36 AM </p><p></p><p></p><p> I've read the Posts.</p><p> Read them, and concluded that:</p><p></p><p> The Industrial Revolution of the Gnomes is not stopped, after all.</p><p> It has the backing of too many allied nations at this point to be easily stopped.</p><p></p><p> The gnomes start combining magic with technology (see the articles by Gez on this page and on page one.)</p><p> They invent clean technologies. The skies do not pollute over their cities.</p><p> They build with a minimum of destruction to their environment, using magic.</p><p> The gnomes attempt to deal with their neighbors peacefully, advertising their new technologies as beneficial,</p><p> something to be desired. </p><p> The peaceful and beneficial use of combined technology and magic, with all it's new wonders, is advertised</p><p> in every city that will listen, shown to the people in World Fair type exhibitions.</p><p></p><p> Unfortunately, the Zhentarim, Red Wizards, Lords of Calimshan, and the rulers of Mulhorand are not so</p><p> reasonable.</p><p> These nations and wizards begin a mad production of magical firearms and magical cannon.</p><p> Great Red Wizard Ironbacks with hulls of enchanted steel and Cannons of Accuracy roar into the Sea of</p><p> Fallen Stars.</p><p> A similar situation occurs in the Moonsea.</p><p></p><p> There is no war. Yet.</p><p> The gnomes do not desire war. They will not, however, simply abandon their magical technology because</p><p> someone asks them to.</p><p> The nations now involved in magical technological research aren't listening to anyone.</p><p></p><p> [This message has been edited by Edena_of_Neith (edited 04-05-2001).]</p><p></p><p> Gez</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-05-2001 08:19 AM </p><p></p><p> Thanks to have taken into account my (and also other, less vocal people's) objections on polluting gnomes.</p><p></p><p> Well, it's an interesting scenario. Maybe we should propose that to Greenwood (as you place this revolution</p><p> in the Realms).</p><p> It could make it way in D&D 4e's Realms </p><p> What would be interesting is that the "Forgotten Folk" will suddenly be the center of much attentions. Maybe</p><p> this was even the reason of their technocrusade, they were tired of being ignored...</p><p></p><p> Hum... With their innate knack for illusion, I think Gnomes could make excellent movie theaters, and</p><p> fabulous films. I predict a great success of Gnomes in the leisure industry (once Dwarves will have taken</p><p> over the heavy metalworking industry).</p><p></p><p> Estlor</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-05-2001 01:44 PM </p><p></p><p> Here's how you can figure that the industrial revolution would EVENTUALLY be stopped.</p><p></p><p> As people move more and more towards technology they invaribly forget how to do things for themselves.</p><p> How many people here know how to ride horses? I'd wager that number is smaller than back in the medival</p><p> times. Or how many can start a fire with two sticks?</p><p></p><p> So people find easier ways to do things. Fighters die out because no one needs to spend all their time</p><p> training when they can aim and fire. Wizards die out because no one needs to spend years studying light or</p><p> produce fire when they can flip a switch, take train, irrigate by turning a knob, and so on. With the wonders</p><p> of technology attainable, people stop looking to the gods to solve their problems and clerics and paladins</p><p> go out. The barbarians are civilized and become warriors. Druids and elves retreat to the forests and protect</p><p> themselves with wards. Rogues and bards flourish, as do experts, warriors, and commoners.</p><p></p><p> And this continues for 200 years until all the humanoids that knew about the wonders of the fantasy age are</p><p> dead and buried.</p><p></p><p> Then the elves and druids come back, bringing something that no one has known about for years - magic.</p><p></p><p> Imagine if a wizard, a cleric, a druid, and a sorcerer dropped into the middle of your local city. Do you think</p><p> the police, or even the army, could stop them? You get a lucky shot in on the wizard, the cleric raised him.</p><p> The sorcerer tears apart the riot squad with a single fireball. Tanks are swallowed whole and planes buffeted</p><p> out of the sky by the druid.</p><p></p><p> So the gnomes would win for a while, yes. But the Coalition Against Gnomish Technology (CAGT) ultimately</p><p> moves region by region, cleansing the land from the gnomish perversions, permitting only those limited</p><p> things that do not upset the natural balance to survive. The druids become the Lords of the Land, acting as</p><p> regional peace-keepers and overseers. The elves become the Lords of the Culture, acting as the ruling race</p><p> until humanity can recover from the dark age CAGT sent them spiraling into.</p><p></p><p> And ultimately, hundreds of years farther into the future the forces of CAGT have succeeded in breeding a</p><p> magical United Toril-Sphere Alliance (UTSA) that lives in unity with nature and provides for all the needs of</p><p> the blended culture with clean, efficient magic.</p><p></p><p> Oh, the industrial revolution is stopped - this much you can be assured of. And the damage those pesky</p><p> gnomes caused will be restored with patience and magical purity.</p><p></p><p> ------------------</p><p> The Lighthouse Webmaster</p><p> "More conversions, less talk."</p><p></p><p> Abbas</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-05-2001 02:00 PM </p><p></p><p> That's complete nonsense. Nobody would stop to learn Magic, because Spellcasters would earn the big</p><p> money.</p><p></p><p> There are thousand things we would need machines for millions of bucks, a single Wizard or Cleric can do</p><p> with Magic.</p><p></p><p> Edena_of_Neith</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-05-2001 06:58 PM </p><p></p><p> So, if what I'm hearing (see above Posts) is true, the Gnomish Industrial Revolution gives way to the</p><p> Supremacy of the Druids and Elves.</p><p> They now rule all of Toril, and no technology is allowed at all that they do not permit.</p><p> In fact, they rule all of Realmspace. The United Toril-Sphere Alliance (UTSA) reigns supreme.</p><p> All you dwarves out there, take note!</p><p></p><p> [This message has been edited by Edena_of_Neith (edited 04-05-2001).]</p><p></p><p></p><p> This topic is 16 pages</p><p> long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 </p><p></p><p> All times are Central Time (US)</p><p> This is an ARCHIVED topic. 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(Page 3) </p><p></p><p> UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! </p><p></p><p> profile | register | preferences | faq | search </p><p></p><p></p><p> This topic is 16 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 </p><p> This topic was originally posted in this forum: General RPG Discussion</p><p></p><p> Author </p><p> Topic: What would your PCs do if gnomes invented the Industrial Revolution? </p><p> naya</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-05-2001 08:50 PM </p><p></p><p> my 25th level merchant (let's make him a rogue)... will work an alliance with the gnomes (with my +36 in</p><p> diplomacy and my charisma of 28, my "natural" roll of 20)..</p><p> then i'll create the first multinational company. i'll hire little half-orcs children to work in my factories 15</p><p> hours a day and pay them one copper a month (just so that i have an excuse not to call it slavery!).. then</p><p> with my new superpowerfull company i'll start taking over every single industry and finally taking over the</p><p> world... that is when I will invent the word "capitalism"...</p><p></p><p> after that,my other personality will take over tthe body of the merchat: a 25th level cleric named marx...</p><p></p><p> Lannon</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-05-2001 09:42 PM </p><p></p><p></p><p> quote:</p><p></p><p> Originally posted by Estlor:</p><p> Here's how you can figure that the industrial revolution would EVENTUALLY be stopped.</p><p></p><p> As people move more and more towards technology they invaribly forget how to do things</p><p> for themselves. How many people here know how to ride horses? I'd wager that number is</p><p> smaller than back in the medival times. Or how many can start a fire with two sticks?</p><p></p><p> So people find easier ways to do things. Fighters die out because no one needs to spend all</p><p> their time training when they can aim and fire. Wizards die out because no one needs to</p><p> spend years studying light or produce fire when they can flip a switch, take train, irrigate</p><p> by turning a knob, and so on. With the wonders of technology attainable, people stop</p><p> looking to the gods to solve their problems and clerics and paladins go out. The barbarians</p><p> are civilized and become warriors. Druids and elves retreat to the forests and protect</p><p> themselves with wards. Rogues and bards flourish, as do experts, warriors, and</p><p> commoners.</p><p></p><p> And this continues for 200 years until all the humanoids that knew about the wonders of</p><p> the fantasy age are dead and buried.</p><p></p><p> Then the elves and druids come back, bringing something that no one has known about for</p><p> years - magic.</p><p></p><p> Imagine if a wizard, a cleric, a druid, and a sorcerer dropped into the middle of your local</p><p> city. Do you think the police, or even the army, could stop them? You get a lucky shot in on</p><p> the wizard, the cleric raised him. The sorcerer tears apart the riot squad with a single</p><p> fireball. Tanks are swallowed whole and planes buffeted out of the sky by the druid.</p><p></p><p> So the gnomes would win for a while, yes. But the Coalition Against Gnomish Technology</p><p> (CAGT) ultimately moves region by region, cleansing the land from the gnomish</p><p> perversions, permitting only those limited things that do not upset the natural balance to</p><p> survive. The druids become the Lords of the Land, acting as regional peace-keepers and</p><p> overseers. The elves become the Lords of the Culture, acting as the ruling race until</p><p> humanity can recover from the dark age CAGT sent them spiraling into.</p><p></p><p> And ultimately, hundreds of years farther into the future the forces of CAGT have</p><p> succeeded in breeding a magical United Toril-Sphere Alliance (UTSA) that lives in unity with</p><p> nature and provides for all the needs of the blended culture with clean, efficient magic.</p><p></p><p> Oh, the industrial revolution is stopped - this much you can be assured of. And the damage</p><p> those pesky gnomes caused will be restored with patience and magical purity.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> This is crazy. You are vastly exagerating the powers available to wizards and you are totally ignoring the</p><p> advantages available in modern technology. You bet I think an army with rifles could take out a long pc</p><p> party. It would take all of an instant for the military to put so much metal in them that they wouldnt be</p><p> recognizable as human. That could happen in the first round of combat. Yah one riot squad down, of</p><p> course that does nothing for the thousands behind him. All of those thousands carrying firepower superior</p><p> to batallions of sword wielding men. All that firepower in little cartridge loaded weapons. You think the</p><p> fighter can stand up to that, the wizard, the cleric? Give me a break!!!</p><p></p><p> Not to meantion that you are still ignoring the fact that magic will have its uses. Ignoring the fact that we</p><p> have modern day warriors, ignoring the fact that we have modern day clerics.</p><p></p><p> The stupid druids can be massacred so can the elves. And guess what if no one is worshipping the gods</p><p> they start to slip farther and farther away. No more magic spells for clerics and druids. Not to meantion</p><p> that if, as you suggested (because i certainly didnt), that wizards begin to disappear then so does the</p><p> weave and so does mystra. No more magic period. Of course there isnt any need to kill off magic, like I</p><p> said an enchanted assault rifle would be something special.</p><p></p><p></p><p> Lannon</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-05-2001 11:33 PM </p><p></p><p> bump</p><p></p><p> TheBalor</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-05-2001 11:45 PM </p><p></p><p> therein lies your error. MODERN technology, my friend, does not yet exist. The best they have are</p><p> flintlocks, and those take forever to load. I wonder why we all think it would erupt into war. Mages would</p><p> make the best of the situation, and although there are many things nowadays that can do a fraction of</p><p> the things wizards could do( though at a much,much higher price) wizards can ALWAYS outdo I.R.</p><p> technology. And clerical magic would stay strong, for though there are many millions of atheists/agnostics</p><p> in this world, I believe that is due to the utter lack of proof of divinity. Clerics are also far more efficient,</p><p> and can bring back the dead. BUT, if steampunk,wizardry, and clerical magic combine...Man, you'd have</p><p> one helluva civilization. As for druids and rangers? F*ck them.</p><p></p><p> ------------------</p><p> </p><p></p><p> Blood Jester</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-06-2001 01:58 AM </p><p></p><p> How does technology deal with Improved Invisibility? Remember, it's magic, I can see you, but I give off</p><p> no energy in ANY spectrum, if I did dwarves would be immune to Invisibility. As far as bullets, you are</p><p> forgetting Protection from Normal Missiles. As far as the early days of the war go, our own history tell you</p><p> that a squad of archers will annihilate easily twice their number of musket, or even single shot rifle types.</p><p> Our world had many cultural blocks to the growth of archer based armies. The few who utilized archers</p><p> gained overwhelming victories in what seemed to be one sided battles against them. In a world with such</p><p> things as Elven nations dedicated to archery, and archer based military, the early gunners and artillerists</p><p> are screwed. Guns became popular because any idiot can pick one up and kill with it with no training, but if</p><p> there had been an army against it's makers, and they (the pro-tech types) had armed their soldiers with,</p><p> say, Civil War era guns, the archers would win with very few casualties. The guns development would</p><p> have ended right then and there, along with the rest of the 'Industrial Revolution' that the Elvish army was</p><p> out to halt. (And btw, trained police officers, who I respect, miss way more than two thirds of their shots at</p><p> shoot-out ranges of under six feet according to their own statistics.)</p><p></p><p> The 'why' of the war is the existence of the ability to see the future, and of gods who do not want their</p><p> world ruined. Add in that the 'D&D Universe' is supposed to be based on more absolute standards of Good</p><p> and Evil, and you have people out to stop the eventual destruction of their world. Make no mistake, bad</p><p> people will make trains that pollute, and will toss their garbage anywhere, regardless of ways to do things</p><p> cleanly because, hey "dem wizurds cost money, and I gots to gets my profits!" (can't lose those extra</p><p> three coppers a month.) Not to mention noise pollution, and the disturbance to the virgin forests inherent</p><p> in building and running even a 'clean' 'elevated' railway straight across the land. (And remember, Faerun</p><p> is not the cesspool of misery that the real dark ages were and has magic, so the growth of technology is</p><p> not needed to feed the people, or stem the spread of disease. And there are plenty of races who are at</p><p> their essence magic, and would rapidly be killed by our polluted way of living.)</p><p></p><p> So, back to war, and Death To Technology!</p><p></p><p> Blood Jester</p><p></p><p> ------------------</p><p> Laugh 'til you die.</p><p></p><p> mastermind</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-06-2001 05:27 AM </p><p></p><p> bump</p><p></p><p> ------------------</p><p> mastermind</p><p> </p><p> The Keeper of the </p><p> Dungeon Dimension</p><p></p><p> Edena_of_Neith</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-06-2001 06:06 AM </p><p></p><p> Ok, I have read the above Threads.</p><p> And, I must conclude, sadly, that:</p><p></p><p> The elves and druids do actually go to war against the gnomes and all the nations industrializing.</p><p> Some nations and religions join the elves and druids.</p><p> Some nations and religions join the gnomes and industrializing nations.</p><p> Let us assume a major war is now in progress on Toril.</p><p></p><p> Which side does your character take? And why?</p><p> If your character does not take sides, and remains neutral, why?</p><p></p><p> Gez</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-06-2001 06:43 AM </p><p></p><p> I join the Gnome!</p><p> Fight the stupid, obscurantist Druids who do not understand technology, magic and nature can combine</p><p> nicely!</p><p> Kill these obnoxious, elitists bastards!</p><p></p><p> Estlor, your Druids are Talibans!</p><p></p><p> I encourage all who want to fight against obscurantism and oppression to choose the good side: the</p><p> Gnome Technomages' one!</p><p></p><p> (And for all the do-gooders here, I'll repeat once again that Gnomes are NG, whereas Druids are TN:</p><p> Gnomes act for the betterment of all, Druids act to protect the statu-quo, even if it's not optimal).</p><p></p><p> Estlor, be ready for a bad surprise: Gnomish technology is deeply entertwined with magic. People continue</p><p> to become wizard, cleric (and even druid) in the industrialized land, because they fit the engineer/scientist</p><p> role.</p><p></p><p> So, magic don't disappear, it even becomes omnipresent. In the average gnomish city, you have</p><p> everwarm chamber vaporing everflowing water, the vapor activate electric generator, condensate, and is</p><p> then canalized to warm habitations, before being annihilated (to avoid flooding).</p><p></p><p> Vehicles are similarly powered by magical infinite energy sources. Magic is studied.</p><p></p><p> As a result, the gnome industry will not looks like our mundane industry, far from it. Magical wards will</p><p> protect engine. And when the army will have to battle the revolted Taliban-druids, the Gnomish Military</p><p> Force will have +5 Rifles, +4 Cannons of Flaming Burst loaded with +3 Brillant Energy Flaming Missile;</p><p> soldiers will be equipped by Adamantine Powersuit of Lifeforce regenerations, etc.</p><p></p><p> It will not be a fight of High Magic against Technology, but a fight of Primitivism+High Magic against</p><p> High-Tech+High-Magic.</p><p></p><p> Guess who will won...</p><p></p><p> Gez</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-06-2001 06:56 AM </p><p></p><p> Invisibility ?</p><p> Duh! Have you seen the Bow of True Arrow ? True Strike at will! (so you fire one round on two, but you're</p><p> pretty sure to hit).</p><p> True Strike allow you to ignore miss chance due to concealment, invisibility, blur, displacement, mirror</p><p> image, etc. Against anything!</p><p> Protection from arrow give you DR 20/+1 against projectile weapons.</p><p> All I can tell you is that Keen Flaming +5 bullets fired by a +5 Rifle of True Hits will be something like</p><p> d12+1d6+10 damages, ignoring all DR except those of the X/- forms, and ignoring misschance from all</p><p> magic tricks.</p><p></p><p> Re-read my posts (I insist) all you gnome-haters: they will have several gods behind them (BTW, you do</p><p> remember that Gond, Deneir and Mystra are rather friendly ? All knowledge-deity tend to appreciate each</p><p> other).</p><p></p><p> You know, reloading time for a Magical Musket with Bullet of Returning is pretty small: you fire, you hit,</p><p> the bullet is ready, lather, rinse, repeat.</p><p></p><p> Gnome Rules !</p><p></p><p> Estlor</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-06-2001 10:27 AM </p><p></p><p> You honestly over-estimate the human nature that everyone has.</p><p></p><p> Point in case: Humans are lazy. Do you know how a VCR works? Not exactly, because all you need to know</p><p> is press play and it does.</p><p></p><p> So even if the technology would be magical (which, if you go back to page 1, it states they discover STEAM</p><p> power, which is natural and implies their technology will be a natural development, not magical), only a</p><p> handful would even remember the magic needed to build it. Suppose you have an efficient, enchanted</p><p> construction plant where all you do is turn a nob and a gnomish whizzel-wob is created. After a hundred</p><p> years, no one has a clue how to make a whizzel-wob because all they know is turn a nob and it's there.</p><p> Likewise, the machine never breaks down, so no one knows how to enchant a new one.</p><p></p><p> So when the elvish wizards come and dispel the machine, no more whizzel-wobs.</p><p></p><p> Do you know how to fix your car at home? Most do not because they don't have to. Imagine a world where</p><p> enchanted cars never broke down. Soon no one would know how to fix them or enchant them because</p><p> they always were just there.</p><p></p><p> Even if technology is for the good of all, that's why the elves and druids oppose it. Technology makes</p><p> people lazy and ignorant. By taking the technology away and creating a new society, the elves foster the</p><p> relearning of lost crafts and arts until the world is a more learned place.</p><p></p><p> So yes, people WOULD stop practicing magic and praying to the gods for help. Why waste all that time</p><p> learning magic missile when you can pick up a gnomish handgun of oopsie and do the same thing with no</p><p> training? And with no potions of longevity in the game anymore, soon the great masters die out and only</p><p> the elves and druids have magic.</p><p></p><p> Face it, the gnomes may have good intentions, but the advent of technology means the destruction of</p><p> magic as we know it. And as such, the new Gnomish Trade League (GTL) will eventually fall to he CAGT</p><p> and give yield to the UTSA. And thank heavens that the elves are good as well - imagine if the orcs took</p><p> over!</p><p></p><p> ------------------</p><p> The Lighthouse Webmaster</p><p> "More conversions, less talk."</p><p></p><p> Blood Jester</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-06-2001 12:35 PM </p><p></p><p></p><p> quote:</p><p></p><p> Originally posted by Gez:</p><p> Invisibility ?</p><p> Duh! Have you seen the Bow of True Arrow ? True Strike at will! (so you fire one round on</p><p> two, but you're pretty sure to hit).</p><p> True Strike allow you to ignore miss chance due to concealment, invisibility, blur,</p><p> displacement, mirror image, etc. Against anything!</p><p> Protection from arrow give you DR 20/+1 against projectile weapons.</p><p> All I can tell you is that Keen Flaming +5 bullets fired by a +5 Rifle of True Hits will be</p><p> something like d12+1d6+10 damages, ignoring all DR except those of the X/- forms, and</p><p> ignoring misschance from all magic tricks.</p><p></p><p> Re-read my posts (I insist) all you gnome-haters: they will have several gods behind them</p><p> (BTW, you do remember that Gond, Deneir and Mystra are rather friendly ? All</p><p> knowledge-deity tend to appreciate each other).</p><p></p><p> You know, reloading time for a Magical Musket with Bullet of Returning is pretty small: you</p><p> fire, you hit, the bullet is ready, lather, rinse, repeat.</p><p></p><p> Gnome Rules !</p><p></p><p> Gez:</p><p></p><p> I was going off topic and replying to your comments about modern day 'real world' police dealing with the</p><p> sudden appearance of an adventuring party. </p><p></p><p> But I will say that most of the pro-techno folks seem to be relying on a LOT of magic to win this war. What</p><p> happens when the majority of mages and non-PC-race magic beings join the anti-tech side out of</p><p> self-preservation?</p><p></p><p> Also, druids no longer need to be true neutral any more. Things will get scary when the Neutral Good and</p><p> Neutral Evil druids band together in a common cause (along with the LN, CN, and TN druids.)</p><p></p><p> Blood Jester</p><p></p><p> ------------------</p><p> Laugh 'til you die.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Edena_of_Neith, post: 1302657, member: 2020"] [b](2nd Post) Thread One of the 1st IR[/b] Lannon Member posted 04-04-2001 10:58 PM Oh please the war isnt over yet. I dont think covert operations is going to simply shut down a massive operation like an industrial revolution. How about all these other countries that figure out how wonderful it is to suddenly be outproducing, outfarming, and generally outperforming all the other countries that are still relying on their few mages for power and the backs of their peasants. Heck lets say that they start mass producing... dong dong dong guns! And then they start shooting mages, fighters and other pesky adventurers. And when they go to battle with other nations they bring those same guns along... It would be a real mess if a well equipped group of men with guns faced a well equipped group of men with swords... All those bloody, dying men, would be wishing their country was taking part in this marvelous industrial revolution that puts explosives akin to magic into the hands of the common footsoldier. And one elf! Some little elf that is breaking in and burning papers and has no idea what is going on. Well why not set up some interesting problems for him too. Why not hire our own mages, we can sell them their own guns, then the mage can fire off his spells and pump a quarter inch ball into the gut of the closest fighter. Come to think of it, that mage might just appreciate that nifty little gun. Furthermore, if we can just harness the damage capacity of these nifty little bullets, maybe we can get some casings on them... If you have the industrial revolution kiss your non industrial revolutioned butt good bye. Magic really isnt going to save you, not when the vast majority of people dont have it, and not when the production capacity of these gnomes will vastly outperform that of even a thousand mages. I can just see it, the gnomes, pumping up their machines to produce instruments of destruction that any person can use. Any peasant now has the capability of a low level fighter. And all those poor mages trying desperately and expensively to create wands and staves. But those mages know its already doomed because they and their comrades will be the only ones that can use them. "We cant just train the commoners to wield magical staves and wands me-lord. Its these damn guns! All the explosion of magic and any fool from the fields can shoot down one of my best troops! And that is after a single day of training!". The problems just go on and on and on. No one has considered retaliation from the states that have embraced the revolution. These are just some ideas... 33 TheBalor Member posted 04-04-2001 11:23 PM Out-perform mages? Lessee...any number of mage spells can stop bullets, kill you instantly, destroy entire cities in a few hours, defy all laws of physics effortlessly, mend any item instantly, bring people BACK TO LIFE (wish or clone), need I go on? I REALLY doubt that guns are more destructive than say, cloudkill or Power word:kill. Let ALONE pre revelutionary war guns.. ------------------ You have obviously exceeded your lowborn heritage and surged to the vanguard of goonery-Edwin Odeisseron [This message has been edited by TheBalor (edited 04-04-2001).] 34 Victim Member posted 04-04-2001 11:24 PM Protection from arrows works against guns. The primary advantage of guns is ease of use. Ease of doesn't matter much in a DnD world as the HP, AC, and DR on many monsters are too much for normal weapons to defeat. A unit of men with primitive guns would probably be less effective than the same unit with cross bows. Guns, especially the inaccurate, unreliable and slow ones, aren't exactly the ultimate weapon. I can't see how getting shot with gun would be much worse than a bow. Look in the DMG, good firearms are rated at D12, not the magical kill anything/anyone weapons that you make them out to be. Even if the guns were as effective as you believe, AoE spells and mass charm/suggestion would cause your army to explode or shoot each other. How many of those peasents with a day of training would make save against web, sleep or color spray, let alone powerful magics. Or simple illusion that wastes all your limited ammo. How would the industrial society support itself? With druids around, not many people have worked out amazing farming techniques. Probably the only reason Faerun can support its current urban population is because of druids. How many people in your cities starve when the crops aren't enhanced? Of course, people make the assumption that an industrial revolution would be accepted. You believe that many nations would embrace technology because its advantages. I doubt it. It isn't needed and there is no pressure for it. The greeks could have begun an industrial revolution but didn't. If the greek's didn't want or need an industrial revolution, then why would a world rich in magic need one? Not to mention the fact an industrial, consumer society faced with certain foes is completely helpless. After magic is abandoned, who can stop a mind flayer? Outsiders? Dragons? How could they even know what they face? Who would be prepared to resist these external threats? 35 TheBalor Member posted 04-04-2001 11:32 PM *takes deep breath* Dragon scales are harder than reinforced steel, and more resistant according to type. What do you do against etheral opponents? And ONE DAY OF TRAINING? Don't make me laugh. A policeman can hit a moving target 1 out of 10 times, and that's with a modern day glock or magnum. Now, if I just hand a peasant a flint lock(at best) and tell him how to reload, fire, etc.,etc., he'll miss about a million times. If I were a level 2 mage, I could kill that guy with a magic missle, not to mention screw up his aim with illusions, go etheral, or just use a stoneskin, he'll be dead.dead.dead. 36 Abbas Member posted 04-04-2001 11:51 PM Hmm, why is it stopped? What we have are a number of Elves, mostly out of world and by the time most of them would recognize the facts and really do something the Gnomes would have had a few hundred years and Stealth Bombers, nuclear rockets... But to come back to Gnomes nature, they wouldn't start to build great Railroads. They would have an 'Iron horse' around their village, be pleased and do something else. Dwarves are Ingenieurs, Gnomes are Scientists. They don't produce useful things, they produce things, because they want to know if they function. Same with Gnomish Magic, Illusions are the most facinating kind of Magic. 37 Lannon Member posted 04-05-2001 12:00 AM quote: Originally posted by Victim: Protection from arrows works against guns. The primary advantage of guns is ease of use. Ease of doesn't matter much in a DnD world as the HP, AC, and DR on many monsters are too much for normal weapons to defeat. A unit of men with primitive guns would probably be less effective than the same unit with cross bows. Guns, especially the inaccurate, unreliable and slow ones, aren't exactly the ultimate weapon. I can't see how getting shot with gun would be much worse than a bow. Look in the DMG, good firearms are rated at D12, not the magical kill anything/anyone weapons that you make them out to be. < The reason is range and armor penetration my friend. If you have not considered teh effects of armor penetration in your argument then you are completely ignoring why these weapons immediatly outclassed heavily armored knights> Even if the guns were as effective as you believe, AoE spells and mass charm/suggestion would cause your army to explode or shoot each other. How many of those peasents with a day of training would make save against web, sleep or color spray, let alone powerful magics. Or simple illusion that wastes all your limited ammo. How would the industrial society support itself? With druids around, not many people have worked out amazing farming techniques. Probably the only reason Faerun can support its current urban population is because of druids. How many people in your cities starve when the crops aren't enhanced? Of course, people make the assumption that an industrial revolution would be accepted. You believe that many nations would embrace technology because its advantages. I doubt it. It isn't needed and there is no pressure for it. The greeks could have begun an industrial revolution but didn't. If the greek's didn't want or need an industrial revolution, then why would a world rich in magic need one? Not to mention the fact an industrial, consumer society faced with certain foes is completely helpless. After magic is abandoned, who can stop a mind flayer? Outsiders? Dragons? How could they even know what they face? Who would be prepared to resist these external threats? How are they helpless. Build newer and better explosives. Build bigger guns. Shoot some cannons at the Dragon. Blow up the mind flayer. Have your own mages enchant your guns. Are you daft man there isnt any need to kill all the mages, only fools that are trying to hurt the revolution! As for the fellow that talked about actually shooting someone with a gun. Its different hitting a moving target with one bullet when that person is moving all around. It is another story when taht same man is about ten feet away and closing fast. Any fool with a gun will shoot you flat in the chest at that range. Dont tell me it wouldnt happen. 38 TheBalor Member posted 04-05-2001 12:19 AM *salivates over the idea of a enchanted, +5 vorpal AK-47* ------------------ You have obviously exceeded your lowborn heritage and surged to the vanguard of goonery-Edwin Odeisseron 39 Lannon Member posted 04-05-2001 12:20 AM quote: Originally posted by Victim: Protection from arrows works against guns. The primary advantage of guns is ease of use. Ease of doesn't matter much in a DnD world as the HP, AC, and DR on many monsters are too much for normal weapons to defeat. A unit of men with primitive guns would probably be less effective than the same unit with cross bows. Guns, especially the inaccurate, unreliable and slow ones, aren't exactly the ultimate weapon. I can't see how getting shot with gun would be much worse than a bow. Look in the DMG, good firearms are rated at D12, not the magical kill anything/anyone weapons that you make them out to be. Even if the guns were as effective as you believe, AoE spells and mass charm/suggestion would cause your army to explode or shoot each other. How many of those peasents with a day of training would make save against web, sleep or color spray, let alone powerful magics. Or simple illusion that wastes all your limited ammo. How would the industrial society support itself? With druids around, not many people have worked out amazing farming techniques. Probably the only reason Faerun can support its current urban population is because of druids. How many people in your cities starve when the crops aren't enhanced? Of course, people make the assumption that an industrial revolution would be accepted. You believe that many nations would embrace technology because its advantages. I doubt it. It isn't needed and there is no pressure for it. The greeks could have begun an industrial revolution but didn't. If the greek's didn't want or need an industrial revolution, then why would a world rich in magic need one? Not to mention the fact an industrial, consumer society faced with certain foes is completely helpless. After magic is abandoned, who can stop a mind flayer? Outsiders? Dragons? How could they even know what they face? Who would be prepared to resist these external threats? I dont know why but part of my response was deleted. You meantion spells. Well why dont the industrial nations hire their own wizards to combat those of the other nations? Why not have their mages keep the other mages busy. In the meantime the foot soldiers with their nifty guns can shoot the armor off the poor fools with swords and make a mess out of archers with volleys of high powered shot. Why not let a wonderful archane archer have fun empowering the shots for a musket? All the arguments you make about magic come to nothing. The industrial nation does not have to abandon magic. They simply will use it in a different way. Enchanted cannon and muskets, or gasp cartridge loaded weaponry would make short work of those dragons and illithids. Suddenly the fighter is gone, replaced by glorious alternity with joe shmoe firing shots from his hip and mowing down morons in plate armor with his machine gun. As for the problem with druids. Why dont the gnomes have the druids taken out? Why not hire some kindly adventurers to take out those nasty barbarians that are killing men out in the fields. Why these are hard working peasants that are simply trying to earn a good days labor. Something needs to be done! Furthermore, who needs a druid when increased production due to the incorporation of new technology is possible? dont forget that the industrial revolution inspired advances in farming as well. Those advances in farming were enough to feed the growing populations of an industrialized nation. Another side note, terrorist groups do not win wars. 40 TheBalor Member posted 04-05-2001 12:50 AM Gah...I'm starting to lean towards the more magi-tech side(anyone here played FF3/6?) Umm...Lannon, why do you feel you need to kill the druids and barbs? I think that they could work with the new farming technology. Think about it; plant growth improved with technology, and then doubled with the spell plant growth. Ya just seem a bit extreme... ------------------ You have obviously exceeded your lowborn heritage and surged to the vanguard of goonery-Edwin Odeisseron 41 Lannon Member posted 04-05-2001 01:07 AM quote: Originally posted by TheBalor: Gah...I'm starting to lean towards the more magi-tech side(anyone here played FF3/6?) Umm...Lannon, why do you feel you need to kill the druids and barbs? I think that they could work with the new farming technology. Think about it; plant growth improved with technology, and then doubled with the spell plant growth. Ya just seem a bit extreme... They dont need to be killed. However druids are more concerned with the balance of nature. That being the case, stripping the land for resources and improving farming techniques by savaging the land would probably arouse their attention and force some confrontation. Now, if they want to cooperate and perhaps live within some designated "Wild Zones" maybe something could be worked out . 42 Gez Member posted 04-05-2001 04:59 AM Edena, please, answer me... Read my previous post (on page one) and tell me WHY there would be a war. Yep, why ? Because Elves and Druids are a bunch of genociding idiots that want to kill all gnomes at the slightiest pretext ? Because the OOC knowledge that pollutions kill animals and induce global warming is magically granted to just everyone (but not those silly self-claiming "True Good" Gnome) ? Because it would be impossible to mix magic and technology to create clean and reliable machinery to everyone ? Try to be consistant. A permanently Heated metal container can boil water without need for burning carbon. A photoelectric cell can be forever alimented by a Continual Flame. There's just so much ways of having a pollution-free industry in a magic world. And even if you create waste, you can destroy them forever (look at Bottomless Pit in R&R for a low-level way of disposing of garbage). With the appropriate precautions, a railroad is of strictly no harms for nature: have it pass on bridges (like a highway), so that animals pass below it without risks. No black smoke, because the vapor is produced by throwing water from an Endless Decanter in a Permanently Heated chamber. Lots of people on this thread acted like rampaging luddites, thirsty for gnome blood. Why so much hate ? (I have to start a thread called "Hey guys, why do u hate gnomes ?") Use your Int score, and your Wis score. An industrimagical revolution is not a bad, evil thing. For those who claim that it will raise Gond's power over those of other gods. Not entirely true. He will sure be raised in power, but as a god of invention and innovations, as soon as something becomes old-tech it's no more in his domain. Compare it with Mystra's grasp over all magic. Gond would be about as important as Mystra in power, but no greater. Don't forget several other gods have claim over craft and tools (particularly in the Dwarven and Gnome pantheon). Furthermore, an industrial revolution would give more power to existing god. Akadi can become the patroness of Planes and Zeppelins, for example. Shaundakul, or other travel-deity could also have claims over vehicles. War gods can take claim over guns and firearms: a Torm worshipping soldier will not convert to the cult of the Wonderbringer because he want to use a gun. And other deity will emerge. Look at war: it's something that interest lots of people, so they are lots of war gods. Once industry interest lots of people, new industry gods will emerge. Dareoon Dalandrove Member posted 04-05-2001 06:08 AM Has anyone read the book The Jackal of Nar? I think if you wanted to add some of these advanced technologies but keep the medieval feel this is a good model. The most brilliant engineering and scientific mind is a short little guy too! ------------------ Hey...luck is just one of my many skills. Rincewind Member posted 04-05-2001 06:54 AM Go check out the Mondus Fumus setting in the Whereabouts boards... the technology there is a fusion of tech and magic (musket with an extradimensional space to store bullets). I'm bumping it now. Edena_of_Neith Member posted 04-05-2001 07:36 AM I've read the Posts. Read them, and concluded that: The Industrial Revolution of the Gnomes is not stopped, after all. It has the backing of too many allied nations at this point to be easily stopped. The gnomes start combining magic with technology (see the articles by Gez on this page and on page one.) They invent clean technologies. The skies do not pollute over their cities. They build with a minimum of destruction to their environment, using magic. The gnomes attempt to deal with their neighbors peacefully, advertising their new technologies as beneficial, something to be desired. The peaceful and beneficial use of combined technology and magic, with all it's new wonders, is advertised in every city that will listen, shown to the people in World Fair type exhibitions. Unfortunately, the Zhentarim, Red Wizards, Lords of Calimshan, and the rulers of Mulhorand are not so reasonable. These nations and wizards begin a mad production of magical firearms and magical cannon. Great Red Wizard Ironbacks with hulls of enchanted steel and Cannons of Accuracy roar into the Sea of Fallen Stars. A similar situation occurs in the Moonsea. There is no war. Yet. The gnomes do not desire war. They will not, however, simply abandon their magical technology because someone asks them to. The nations now involved in magical technological research aren't listening to anyone. [This message has been edited by Edena_of_Neith (edited 04-05-2001).] Gez Member posted 04-05-2001 08:19 AM Thanks to have taken into account my (and also other, less vocal people's) objections on polluting gnomes. Well, it's an interesting scenario. Maybe we should propose that to Greenwood (as you place this revolution in the Realms). It could make it way in D&D 4e's Realms What would be interesting is that the "Forgotten Folk" will suddenly be the center of much attentions. Maybe this was even the reason of their technocrusade, they were tired of being ignored... Hum... With their innate knack for illusion, I think Gnomes could make excellent movie theaters, and fabulous films. I predict a great success of Gnomes in the leisure industry (once Dwarves will have taken over the heavy metalworking industry). Estlor Member posted 04-05-2001 01:44 PM Here's how you can figure that the industrial revolution would EVENTUALLY be stopped. As people move more and more towards technology they invaribly forget how to do things for themselves. How many people here know how to ride horses? I'd wager that number is smaller than back in the medival times. Or how many can start a fire with two sticks? So people find easier ways to do things. Fighters die out because no one needs to spend all their time training when they can aim and fire. Wizards die out because no one needs to spend years studying light or produce fire when they can flip a switch, take train, irrigate by turning a knob, and so on. With the wonders of technology attainable, people stop looking to the gods to solve their problems and clerics and paladins go out. The barbarians are civilized and become warriors. Druids and elves retreat to the forests and protect themselves with wards. Rogues and bards flourish, as do experts, warriors, and commoners. And this continues for 200 years until all the humanoids that knew about the wonders of the fantasy age are dead and buried. Then the elves and druids come back, bringing something that no one has known about for years - magic. Imagine if a wizard, a cleric, a druid, and a sorcerer dropped into the middle of your local city. Do you think the police, or even the army, could stop them? You get a lucky shot in on the wizard, the cleric raised him. The sorcerer tears apart the riot squad with a single fireball. Tanks are swallowed whole and planes buffeted out of the sky by the druid. So the gnomes would win for a while, yes. But the Coalition Against Gnomish Technology (CAGT) ultimately moves region by region, cleansing the land from the gnomish perversions, permitting only those limited things that do not upset the natural balance to survive. The druids become the Lords of the Land, acting as regional peace-keepers and overseers. The elves become the Lords of the Culture, acting as the ruling race until humanity can recover from the dark age CAGT sent them spiraling into. And ultimately, hundreds of years farther into the future the forces of CAGT have succeeded in breeding a magical United Toril-Sphere Alliance (UTSA) that lives in unity with nature and provides for all the needs of the blended culture with clean, efficient magic. Oh, the industrial revolution is stopped - this much you can be assured of. And the damage those pesky gnomes caused will be restored with patience and magical purity. ------------------ The Lighthouse Webmaster "More conversions, less talk." Abbas Member posted 04-05-2001 02:00 PM That's complete nonsense. Nobody would stop to learn Magic, because Spellcasters would earn the big money. There are thousand things we would need machines for millions of bucks, a single Wizard or Cleric can do with Magic. Edena_of_Neith Member posted 04-05-2001 06:58 PM So, if what I'm hearing (see above Posts) is true, the Gnomish Industrial Revolution gives way to the Supremacy of the Druids and Elves. They now rule all of Toril, and no technology is allowed at all that they do not permit. In fact, they rule all of Realmspace. The United Toril-Sphere Alliance (UTSA) reigns supreme. All you dwarves out there, take note! [This message has been edited by Edena_of_Neith (edited 04-05-2001).] This topic is 16 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 All times are Central Time (US) This is an ARCHIVED topic. You may not reply to it! Hop to: Contact Us | D&D 3rd Edition News Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47b Note: This is an archived topic. It is read-only. D&D 3rd Edition News Board Other Archived Stuff What would your PCs do if gnomes invented the Industrial Revolution? (Page 3) UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! profile | register | preferences | faq | search This topic is 16 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 This topic was originally posted in this forum: General RPG Discussion Author Topic: What would your PCs do if gnomes invented the Industrial Revolution? naya Member posted 04-05-2001 08:50 PM my 25th level merchant (let's make him a rogue)... will work an alliance with the gnomes (with my +36 in diplomacy and my charisma of 28, my "natural" roll of 20).. then i'll create the first multinational company. i'll hire little half-orcs children to work in my factories 15 hours a day and pay them one copper a month (just so that i have an excuse not to call it slavery!).. then with my new superpowerfull company i'll start taking over every single industry and finally taking over the world... that is when I will invent the word "capitalism"... after that,my other personality will take over tthe body of the merchat: a 25th level cleric named marx... Lannon Member posted 04-05-2001 09:42 PM quote: Originally posted by Estlor: Here's how you can figure that the industrial revolution would EVENTUALLY be stopped. As people move more and more towards technology they invaribly forget how to do things for themselves. How many people here know how to ride horses? I'd wager that number is smaller than back in the medival times. Or how many can start a fire with two sticks? So people find easier ways to do things. Fighters die out because no one needs to spend all their time training when they can aim and fire. Wizards die out because no one needs to spend years studying light or produce fire when they can flip a switch, take train, irrigate by turning a knob, and so on. With the wonders of technology attainable, people stop looking to the gods to solve their problems and clerics and paladins go out. The barbarians are civilized and become warriors. Druids and elves retreat to the forests and protect themselves with wards. Rogues and bards flourish, as do experts, warriors, and commoners. And this continues for 200 years until all the humanoids that knew about the wonders of the fantasy age are dead and buried. Then the elves and druids come back, bringing something that no one has known about for years - magic. Imagine if a wizard, a cleric, a druid, and a sorcerer dropped into the middle of your local city. Do you think the police, or even the army, could stop them? You get a lucky shot in on the wizard, the cleric raised him. The sorcerer tears apart the riot squad with a single fireball. Tanks are swallowed whole and planes buffeted out of the sky by the druid. So the gnomes would win for a while, yes. But the Coalition Against Gnomish Technology (CAGT) ultimately moves region by region, cleansing the land from the gnomish perversions, permitting only those limited things that do not upset the natural balance to survive. The druids become the Lords of the Land, acting as regional peace-keepers and overseers. The elves become the Lords of the Culture, acting as the ruling race until humanity can recover from the dark age CAGT sent them spiraling into. And ultimately, hundreds of years farther into the future the forces of CAGT have succeeded in breeding a magical United Toril-Sphere Alliance (UTSA) that lives in unity with nature and provides for all the needs of the blended culture with clean, efficient magic. Oh, the industrial revolution is stopped - this much you can be assured of. And the damage those pesky gnomes caused will be restored with patience and magical purity. This is crazy. You are vastly exagerating the powers available to wizards and you are totally ignoring the advantages available in modern technology. You bet I think an army with rifles could take out a long pc party. It would take all of an instant for the military to put so much metal in them that they wouldnt be recognizable as human. That could happen in the first round of combat. Yah one riot squad down, of course that does nothing for the thousands behind him. All of those thousands carrying firepower superior to batallions of sword wielding men. All that firepower in little cartridge loaded weapons. You think the fighter can stand up to that, the wizard, the cleric? Give me a break!!! Not to meantion that you are still ignoring the fact that magic will have its uses. Ignoring the fact that we have modern day warriors, ignoring the fact that we have modern day clerics. The stupid druids can be massacred so can the elves. And guess what if no one is worshipping the gods they start to slip farther and farther away. No more magic spells for clerics and druids. Not to meantion that if, as you suggested (because i certainly didnt), that wizards begin to disappear then so does the weave and so does mystra. No more magic period. Of course there isnt any need to kill off magic, like I said an enchanted assault rifle would be something special. Lannon Member posted 04-05-2001 11:33 PM bump TheBalor Member posted 04-05-2001 11:45 PM therein lies your error. MODERN technology, my friend, does not yet exist. The best they have are flintlocks, and those take forever to load. I wonder why we all think it would erupt into war. Mages would make the best of the situation, and although there are many things nowadays that can do a fraction of the things wizards could do( though at a much,much higher price) wizards can ALWAYS outdo I.R. technology. And clerical magic would stay strong, for though there are many millions of atheists/agnostics in this world, I believe that is due to the utter lack of proof of divinity. Clerics are also far more efficient, and can bring back the dead. BUT, if steampunk,wizardry, and clerical magic combine...Man, you'd have one helluva civilization. As for druids and rangers? F*ck them. ------------------ Blood Jester Member posted 04-06-2001 01:58 AM How does technology deal with Improved Invisibility? Remember, it's magic, I can see you, but I give off no energy in ANY spectrum, if I did dwarves would be immune to Invisibility. As far as bullets, you are forgetting Protection from Normal Missiles. As far as the early days of the war go, our own history tell you that a squad of archers will annihilate easily twice their number of musket, or even single shot rifle types. Our world had many cultural blocks to the growth of archer based armies. The few who utilized archers gained overwhelming victories in what seemed to be one sided battles against them. In a world with such things as Elven nations dedicated to archery, and archer based military, the early gunners and artillerists are screwed. Guns became popular because any idiot can pick one up and kill with it with no training, but if there had been an army against it's makers, and they (the pro-tech types) had armed their soldiers with, say, Civil War era guns, the archers would win with very few casualties. The guns development would have ended right then and there, along with the rest of the 'Industrial Revolution' that the Elvish army was out to halt. (And btw, trained police officers, who I respect, miss way more than two thirds of their shots at shoot-out ranges of under six feet according to their own statistics.) The 'why' of the war is the existence of the ability to see the future, and of gods who do not want their world ruined. Add in that the 'D&D Universe' is supposed to be based on more absolute standards of Good and Evil, and you have people out to stop the eventual destruction of their world. Make no mistake, bad people will make trains that pollute, and will toss their garbage anywhere, regardless of ways to do things cleanly because, hey "dem wizurds cost money, and I gots to gets my profits!" (can't lose those extra three coppers a month.) Not to mention noise pollution, and the disturbance to the virgin forests inherent in building and running even a 'clean' 'elevated' railway straight across the land. (And remember, Faerun is not the cesspool of misery that the real dark ages were and has magic, so the growth of technology is not needed to feed the people, or stem the spread of disease. And there are plenty of races who are at their essence magic, and would rapidly be killed by our polluted way of living.) So, back to war, and Death To Technology! Blood Jester ------------------ Laugh 'til you die. mastermind Member posted 04-06-2001 05:27 AM bump ------------------ mastermind The Keeper of the Dungeon Dimension Edena_of_Neith Member posted 04-06-2001 06:06 AM Ok, I have read the above Threads. And, I must conclude, sadly, that: The elves and druids do actually go to war against the gnomes and all the nations industrializing. Some nations and religions join the elves and druids. Some nations and religions join the gnomes and industrializing nations. Let us assume a major war is now in progress on Toril. Which side does your character take? And why? If your character does not take sides, and remains neutral, why? Gez Member posted 04-06-2001 06:43 AM I join the Gnome! Fight the stupid, obscurantist Druids who do not understand technology, magic and nature can combine nicely! Kill these obnoxious, elitists bastards! Estlor, your Druids are Talibans! I encourage all who want to fight against obscurantism and oppression to choose the good side: the Gnome Technomages' one! (And for all the do-gooders here, I'll repeat once again that Gnomes are NG, whereas Druids are TN: Gnomes act for the betterment of all, Druids act to protect the statu-quo, even if it's not optimal). Estlor, be ready for a bad surprise: Gnomish technology is deeply entertwined with magic. People continue to become wizard, cleric (and even druid) in the industrialized land, because they fit the engineer/scientist role. So, magic don't disappear, it even becomes omnipresent. In the average gnomish city, you have everwarm chamber vaporing everflowing water, the vapor activate electric generator, condensate, and is then canalized to warm habitations, before being annihilated (to avoid flooding). Vehicles are similarly powered by magical infinite energy sources. Magic is studied. As a result, the gnome industry will not looks like our mundane industry, far from it. Magical wards will protect engine. And when the army will have to battle the revolted Taliban-druids, the Gnomish Military Force will have +5 Rifles, +4 Cannons of Flaming Burst loaded with +3 Brillant Energy Flaming Missile; soldiers will be equipped by Adamantine Powersuit of Lifeforce regenerations, etc. It will not be a fight of High Magic against Technology, but a fight of Primitivism+High Magic against High-Tech+High-Magic. Guess who will won... Gez Member posted 04-06-2001 06:56 AM Invisibility ? Duh! Have you seen the Bow of True Arrow ? True Strike at will! (so you fire one round on two, but you're pretty sure to hit). True Strike allow you to ignore miss chance due to concealment, invisibility, blur, displacement, mirror image, etc. Against anything! Protection from arrow give you DR 20/+1 against projectile weapons. All I can tell you is that Keen Flaming +5 bullets fired by a +5 Rifle of True Hits will be something like d12+1d6+10 damages, ignoring all DR except those of the X/- forms, and ignoring misschance from all magic tricks. Re-read my posts (I insist) all you gnome-haters: they will have several gods behind them (BTW, you do remember that Gond, Deneir and Mystra are rather friendly ? All knowledge-deity tend to appreciate each other). You know, reloading time for a Magical Musket with Bullet of Returning is pretty small: you fire, you hit, the bullet is ready, lather, rinse, repeat. Gnome Rules ! Estlor Member posted 04-06-2001 10:27 AM You honestly over-estimate the human nature that everyone has. Point in case: Humans are lazy. Do you know how a VCR works? Not exactly, because all you need to know is press play and it does. So even if the technology would be magical (which, if you go back to page 1, it states they discover STEAM power, which is natural and implies their technology will be a natural development, not magical), only a handful would even remember the magic needed to build it. Suppose you have an efficient, enchanted construction plant where all you do is turn a nob and a gnomish whizzel-wob is created. After a hundred years, no one has a clue how to make a whizzel-wob because all they know is turn a nob and it's there. Likewise, the machine never breaks down, so no one knows how to enchant a new one. So when the elvish wizards come and dispel the machine, no more whizzel-wobs. Do you know how to fix your car at home? Most do not because they don't have to. Imagine a world where enchanted cars never broke down. Soon no one would know how to fix them or enchant them because they always were just there. Even if technology is for the good of all, that's why the elves and druids oppose it. Technology makes people lazy and ignorant. By taking the technology away and creating a new society, the elves foster the relearning of lost crafts and arts until the world is a more learned place. So yes, people WOULD stop practicing magic and praying to the gods for help. Why waste all that time learning magic missile when you can pick up a gnomish handgun of oopsie and do the same thing with no training? And with no potions of longevity in the game anymore, soon the great masters die out and only the elves and druids have magic. Face it, the gnomes may have good intentions, but the advent of technology means the destruction of magic as we know it. And as such, the new Gnomish Trade League (GTL) will eventually fall to he CAGT and give yield to the UTSA. And thank heavens that the elves are good as well - imagine if the orcs took over! ------------------ The Lighthouse Webmaster "More conversions, less talk." Blood Jester Member posted 04-06-2001 12:35 PM quote: Originally posted by Gez: Invisibility ? Duh! Have you seen the Bow of True Arrow ? True Strike at will! (so you fire one round on two, but you're pretty sure to hit). True Strike allow you to ignore miss chance due to concealment, invisibility, blur, displacement, mirror image, etc. Against anything! Protection from arrow give you DR 20/+1 against projectile weapons. All I can tell you is that Keen Flaming +5 bullets fired by a +5 Rifle of True Hits will be something like d12+1d6+10 damages, ignoring all DR except those of the X/- forms, and ignoring misschance from all magic tricks. Re-read my posts (I insist) all you gnome-haters: they will have several gods behind them (BTW, you do remember that Gond, Deneir and Mystra are rather friendly ? All knowledge-deity tend to appreciate each other). You know, reloading time for a Magical Musket with Bullet of Returning is pretty small: you fire, you hit, the bullet is ready, lather, rinse, repeat. Gnome Rules ! Gez: I was going off topic and replying to your comments about modern day 'real world' police dealing with the sudden appearance of an adventuring party. But I will say that most of the pro-techno folks seem to be relying on a LOT of magic to win this war. What happens when the majority of mages and non-PC-race magic beings join the anti-tech side out of self-preservation? Also, druids no longer need to be true neutral any more. Things will get scary when the Neutral Good and Neutral Evil druids band together in a common cause (along with the LN, CN, and TN druids.) Blood Jester ------------------ Laugh 'til you die. [/QUOTE]
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