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<blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 1302659" data-attributes="member: 2020"><p><strong>(Post 3) Thread One of the 1st IR</strong></p><p></p><p>Icarus</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-06-2001 01:39 PM </p><p></p><p> Well, it has been an interesting read, but now I think I'll answer the question.</p><p></p><p> My players would either:</p><p> A - jump on the tech bandwagon and milk it for all its worth.</p><p></p><p></p><p> Or</p><p></p><p> B - fight to the death against the encroaching technologies.</p><p></p><p></p><p> Enkhidu</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-06-2001 02:03 PM </p><p></p><p> As an interesting aside...</p><p></p><p> You might want to pick up a book called The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump. It's a neat book that details a</p><p> "modern" world that uses magic for all the little things that we use technology for.</p><p></p><p> It's an interesting, Alternate Earth read.</p><p></p><p> Enkhidu</p><p></p><p> Edena_of_Neith</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-06-2001 09:12 PM </p><p></p><p> Looking at the Posts above, I would have to conclude that the gnomes and their industrializing allies are</p><p> currently winning the war against the elves and druids.</p><p></p><p> Primarily because the gnomes and their allies are also using magic, in addition to their technology. </p><p> They are combining technology and magic into technomagic.</p><p> Their foes are only using pure magic.</p><p></p><p> Also, the gnomes are winning because their allies are ruthless.</p><p> Ruthless. These industrializing nations are willing to do whatever it takes to win, building ever better (and</p><p> more horrific) weapons of war, attacking and burning whole elvish forests, devastating their own natural</p><p> environments with mines and logging.</p><p> The gnomes disavow such behavior, and do not engage in it, but they have no control over their power</p><p> mad allies, who see technomagic as the way to world supremacy.</p><p></p><p> The gnomes might even go to war against these nations, but the elves and druids are attacking them</p><p> also, so the gnomes have no choice but to carry on their part of the war against said elves and druids.</p><p></p><p> The nations who have joined the elves and druids are at a disadvantage.</p><p> They have only pure magic, and no technomagic.</p><p> Thus, they are outmatched. They are fighting hard, but the magical firearms and magical cannon, the</p><p> enemy Ironbacks of the sea, are taking a heavy toll on them.</p><p></p><p> Riot Gear</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-06-2001 09:47 PM </p><p></p><p> My character, of no special importance, would definitely join the Technomagocracy. Guns are cool. </p><p> "BANG! Hee hee hee he...."</p><p></p><p> ------------------</p><p> Grap a mop, there's going to be blood on the ceiling!!</p><p> -My character.</p><p></p><p> TheBalor</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-06-2001 09:58 PM </p><p></p><p> Lessee here...in one cornah lots of animals. With a teensy bit of magical backup. And a bunch of hippie</p><p> elves. Against archmages, goodly, neutral, and evil priests, just about every nation/city-state/powerful</p><p> orginization in the world that believes in progress, and better lives for their people(or more power). Huh.</p><p> Who's in the right now? </p><p></p><p> ------------------</p><p> </p><p></p><p> DarwinofMind</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-07-2001 12:24 AM </p><p></p><p></p><p> quote:</p><p></p><p> Originally posted by Blood Jester:</p><p> How does technology deal with Improved Invisibility? Remember, it's magic, I can see you,</p><p> but I give off <strong>no energy in ANY spectrum, if I did dwarves would be immune to</strong></p><p><strong> Invisibility. Blood Jester</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong> </strong></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> Very simply, Eventually someone will invent RADAR or SONAR. In fact in a world with invisiblity they would</p><p> be invented faster, Your not phased, the Radar or Sonar ping will bounce off you so slick, If you really</p><p> want to hide from technology you have to go etherial, invisiblity isn't going to do it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> Blood Jester</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-07-2001 12:48 AM </p><p></p><p> Everyone seems to be overlooking those teensy-weensy magical critters we humbly refer to as DRAGONS.</p><p> Since these guys are all intelligent enough to see a train-wreck headed their way, I think I can safely say</p><p> they will pretty much unanimously way in on the side of us 'wussy' elves, druids, and critters. There is no</p><p> way that the technomagic side can hope to scale up the pace of their discovery/invention cycle fast enough</p><p> to counter these bad boys. Our side will use our magic (as well as their own) to buffer them against the</p><p> 'magic' side of the technomagic coalition, and they can easily handle anything 'tech' that the fledgling</p><p> technomagic forces can hurl at them.</p><p></p><p> Score one for the good guys.</p><p></p><p> Blood Jester</p><p></p><p> ------------------</p><p> Laugh 'til you die.</p><p></p><p> [This message has been edited by Blood Jester (edited 04-07-2001).]</p><p></p><p> Blood Jester</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-07-2001 12:54 AM </p><p></p><p></p><p> quote:</p><p></p><p> Originally posted by DarwinofMind:</p><p></p><p> Very simply, Eventually someone will invent RADAR or SONAR. In fact in a world with</p><p> invisiblity they would be invented faster, Your not phased, the Radar or Sonar ping will</p><p> bounce off you so slick, If you really want to hide from technology you have to go etherial,</p><p> invisiblity isn't going to do it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> Silence 15' Radius. Bye-bye Sonar. And I think RADAR will take long enough to develop to be irrelevant in</p><p> our little conflict. And in the 'real' world, radar can NOT target accurately enough (from a hand-held unit)</p><p> for a foot soldier to target an individual with a handgun unless they stand still for a long time and let him</p><p> set up two tripods with RADAR and gun to target.</p><p></p><p> ------------------</p><p> Laugh 'til you die.</p><p></p><p> DarwinofMind</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-07-2001 01:22 AM </p><p></p><p> Just as one final thing for everyone on this thread that seems to think that technology would never</p><p> devolop in DND world becuase magic is better, You'ld better rule 0 out the crossbow. </p><p></p><p> Oh while your at it, Rule 0 out the sword, It I can throw a fireball at you, why invent the sword.</p><p></p><p> Technology just happens, It's so much better than spells that you can only use so many times a day. It's</p><p> inevitable.</p><p></p><p> None of your Eco Warriors are Eco Warriors becuase no one realizes without looking into the future that</p><p> this is dangerous to the enviroment and no one is going to waste there per day spell alotment on looking</p><p> into the future of this without reason.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> Edena_of_Neith</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-07-2001 02:19 AM </p><p></p><p></p><p> Very well. The above article makes sense. I'll go with it.</p><p></p><p> The dragons join the war on the side of the elves and druids.</p><p> The entrance of dragons into the war escalates everything dramatically.</p><p> Subsequently, there is colossal destruction as those dragons target industrial areas.</p><p> Huge explosions and fires destroy large areas of major cities. Dragons streak across the skies, smashing</p><p> trains and sinking ironbacks. The fledgling telegraph invented by the gnomes, communications carried by</p><p> wires, is shredded.</p><p> Farmers everywhere flee their fields, leaving their crops to rot, terrified of the death from the sky. </p><p> Subsequently, anarchy and starvation, and disease, break out over wide areas of Faerun.</p><p></p><p> Now, there is GREAT anger against the elves, druids, and their draconic allies, because of the massive</p><p> civilian casualities.</p><p> In the city firestorms, thousands burned to death. Others lie crippled and maimed from explosions. Strict</p><p> rationing of food is in effect, and people spend much of their time in newly built underground shelters.</p><p></p><p> The gnomes suffered less because they were underground heavily to begin with, but they now firmly</p><p> embrace their allies, and ignore all the deprivations their allies had been doing, because what the dragons</p><p> are doing is much worse.</p><p> The loose coalition of industrializing nations, previously only a loose confederation, declares themselves</p><p> unified against the foe.</p><p> They are taking the elves, druids, and dragons seriously now.</p><p> They are now longer thinking about defeating these enemies.</p><p> They are thinking about exterminating these enemies.</p><p> There is now a state of total war. </p><p> All elves caught in the gnomish/industrialized states regions are imprisoned or killed outright.</p><p> All druidical religions are outlawed in these areas, the druids imprisoned or killed, and all other clerical</p><p> institutions are shut down or convert over to wartime, using their powers to aid their native lands.</p><p></p><p> Edena_of_Neith</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-07-2001 02:34 AM </p><p></p><p></p><p> Oh yes, I forgot something.</p><p></p><p> Considering the capabilities of archmages and archmagistresses with Time Stop (see the thread How to</p><p> cast 19 to 54 spells using the core rules):</p><p></p><p> A second wave of massive destruction hits both sides as the archmages and archmagistresses take to the</p><p> field.</p><p> Kings and Queens die, their royal palaces are smashed flat, mage towers are blown to smithereens, secret</p><p> fortresses annihilated, command and control centers disintegrated, and vast numbers of civilians flee the</p><p> exposed cities for the imagined safety of forest and country.</p><p></p><p></p><p> paperboy</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-07-2001 02:51 AM </p><p></p><p> Hmmm . . . well, let's see. Gnomes, industrial revolution, capitalism, modernism, . . . I got it. I would wait</p><p> it out. As a 25th level wizard I'd extend my life a good long time and wait for the world to turn real sour.</p><p> We are talking full-on modernization of enough of the globe to create a worldwide consummer society that</p><p> it totally dependant on what is essentially an information storage device. And THAT is when I will spring</p><p> into action. I will rename myself "Bill Gates" and head up a 'company' called microsoft. Eventually I will</p><p> become the single most wealthy and powerful mortal in existence and be able to defy even the gods. I</p><p> figure by then I'll be like 90th level, if I play my cards right, and then I will simply ascend into the</p><p> heavens with my unlimited power and cause no end of misery on earth. For you see, I will be an evil god</p><p> who creates software that is glitchy and funky and dumb. Muhahah. MUhahah. MUAHAHAHH!!!</p><p></p><p> . . . never let me post again. </p><p></p><p> [This message has been edited by paperboy (edited 04-07-2001).]</p><p></p><p> Edena_of_Neith</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-07-2001 03:03 AM </p><p></p><p> War Update #1:</p><p></p><p> On the side of the Elvish Alliance:</p><p></p><p> Blood Jester (he was always on the elven side, and has won great renown)</p><p> Estlor (he was always on the elven side, and is famous for talking the dragons into fighting on the elven</p><p> side)</p><p> Victim (he is famous for helping to start the war, with his massive sabotage of machines, factories,</p><p> depots, and the destruction of vast amounts of gnomish research. He's still fighting, leading his covert</p><p> forces to victory)</p><p></p><p> On the side of the Technomancy Confederation:</p><p></p><p> The Balor (he was neutral, but he didn't like elves or druids, apparently - they tried to arrest him, so he</p><p> joined the technomancy)</p><p> Darwin of Mind (he was neutral, but his opinions caused the elves to arrest him: he's escaped and joined</p><p> the technomancy)</p><p> Gez (he was always on the technomancer side, and he is ardently fighting in their cause)</p><p> Icarus (he's actually on both sides, but nevermind that ... )</p><p> Lannon (he's been on the technomancer side from the start, and has won great victories for them)</p><p> Riot Gear (he's eagerly joined the technomancer side)</p><p></p><p></p><p> Neutrals </p><p></p><p> Enkhidu (this philosophical character is contemplating it all, and trying to stay out of the mess)</p><p> Naya (not on either side, but he IS now a wealthy character: his war profiteering and slave labor tactics</p><p> have filled his secret treasury with a million gold pieces)</p><p> Paperboy (he, like a lot of other figures in the shadows, is waiting for the war to end so he can take over</p><p> in the ensuing power vacuum)</p><p></p><p> Upper Krust, where are you?! You could end this war - you're bright enough to figure out the way to finish</p><p> it ...</p><p></p><p> [This message has been edited by Edena_of_Neith (edited 04-07-2001).]</p><p></p><p> elfric</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-07-2001 08:48 AM </p><p></p><p> My gnome would be in the front of the train shouting "stupid humans it´s our time now"</p><p> lalalalala</p><p></p><p></p><p> This topic is 16 pages</p><p> long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 </p><p></p><p> All times are Central Time (US)</p><p> This is an ARCHIVED topic. You may not reply to it!</p><p> Hop to: </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> Contact Us | D&D 3rd Edition News </p><p></p><p></p><p> Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47b</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p> Note: This is an archived topic. It is read-only.</p><p> D&D 3rd Edition News Board </p><p> Other Archived Stuff </p><p> What would your PCs do if gnomes invented the Industrial Revolution? (Page 4) </p><p></p><p> UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! </p><p></p><p> profile | register | preferences | faq | search </p><p></p><p></p><p> This topic is 16 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 </p><p> This topic was originally posted in this forum: General RPG Discussion</p><p></p><p> Author </p><p> Topic: What would your PCs do if gnomes invented the Industrial Revolution? </p><p> Dr Skull</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-07-2001 09:16 AM </p><p></p><p> I'd join the Gnomes in a second. (Besides the fact that I hate Druids and often play Gnomes. Technology</p><p> means more leisure and less hard work for more people, and I'm all for that.</p><p></p><p> ------------------</p><p> Dr Skull</p><p> Infidel defilers, they shall all drown in lakes of blood.</p><p></p><p> buzzard</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-07-2001 10:05 AM </p><p></p><p></p><p> quote:</p><p></p><p> Originally posted by Blood Jester:</p><p> How does technology deal with Improved Invisibility? Remember, it's magic, I can see you,</p><p> but I give off <strong>no energy in ANY spectrum, if I did dwarves would be immune to Invisibility.</strong></p><p><strong> As far as bullets, you are forgetting Protection from Normal Missiles. As far as the early days</strong></p><p><strong> of the war go, our own history tell you that a squad of archers will annihilate easily twice their</strong></p><p><strong> number of musket, or even single shot rifle types. Our world had many cultural blocks to the</strong></p><p><strong> growth of archer based armies. The few who utilized archers gained overwhelming victories in</strong></p><p><strong> what seemed to be one sided battles against them. In a world with such things as Elven</strong></p><p><strong> nations dedicated to archery, and archer based military, the early gunners and artillerists are</strong></p><p><strong> screwed. Guns became popular because any idiot can pick one up and kill with it with no</strong></p><p><strong> training, but if there had been an army against it's makers, and they (the pro-tech types) had</strong></p><p><strong> armed their soldiers with, say, Civil War era guns, the archers would win with very few</strong></p><p><strong> casualties. The guns development would have ended right then and there, along with the rest</strong></p><p><strong> of the 'Industrial Revolution' that the Elvish army was out to halt. (And btw, trained police</strong></p><p><strong> officers, who I respect, miss way more than two thirds of their shots at shoot-out ranges of</strong></p><p><strong> under six feet according to their own statistics.)</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong> Blood Jester</strong></p><p><strong> </strong></p><p></p><p></p><p> I'd restate your anti-tech argument if I were you. Civil war guns are actually enough superior to bows and</p><p> arrows to prove you wrong. Earlier ones were pretty poor, but once the Minie ball was introduced, there was a</p><p> sea change in warfare. The Minie ball allowed for reasonable rapid reloading of rifled weapons. This</p><p> increased effective range to something like 1000 yards. No bow can do that. Also given the pre packages</p><p> charges and bullets, reloading was not so slow anymore. You took out the paper case, tore it with your</p><p> teeth, poured it down the barrel, dropped a bullet on it (I'm not sure if you had to pack it down or not in this</p><p> era, you probably did), placed a percussion cap on the firing pan, and BLAM. Then you could really reach out</p><p> and touch someone. The civil war was so bloody because technology had advanced while tactics hadn't.</p><p></p><p> Also the Civil war did see the introduction of repeating rifles (the Henry and the Spencer), breechloading</p><p> artillery, and the Gatling gun. </p><p> Protection from normal missiles will do nothing against artillery. Improved invisibility won't do much against</p><p> massed fire into the area. </p><p></p><p> However, if you are talking about earlier weapons, like American Revolutionary War period, then yes, those</p><p> muskets sucked. However the case was made for Railroad era technology, and since weapons always keep</p><p> pace with other technology, I'd say the mages are in trouble. </p><p></p><p> Also the real advantage of the tech side- logistics. Railroads mean you can get your troops to any battle</p><p> much more quickly. Thus troops don't need to be dispersed to guard a front. Also re-supply becomes much</p><p> easier. </p><p></p><p> I'm not saying that it's be a romp or anything, but technology does have its advantages. </p><p></p><p> Buzzard</p><p></p><p> zouron</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-07-2001 04:17 PM </p><p></p><p> My level 25th necromancer (actually he is more but that is another matter) would make alliances on the</p><p> technomancer sides early, and while the was escalate gather an huge army of undead to protect his interest,</p><p> while he would aid the gnome with extensive magical knowledge and research. His life devoted to the study</p><p> of magic he would use his alliance with the gnomes to gather all magical material book, knowledge and so</p><p> on he could, make his carstle a sanctuary for all people devoted solely to magic as a protection. By the time</p><p> the dragons do enter the war and the time mage do start his estate would be well protected by the magic</p><p> and observing the war, the gnomes no longer completely honouring their agreement would still be kept</p><p> allianced, but in a passive way. </p><p></p><p> My necromancer would gather those he could and prepare for the gods interception in the war, just in case</p><p> setting up a stronghold on a demiplane specifically created for this, gather all things magical they can. The</p><p> undead armies gathered would still be guarding the estate but also expanding their territory gathering land</p><p> as far as possible, devoting the land to the study of magic, integrrated with technology and as a stand</p><p> alone, using whatever means of magic and technology to keep enemies at bay. This there is a large focus</p><p> on magic education of youth also becomes an important part of those villages/towns gathered under their</p><p> rule. </p><p></p><p> The plan is to gatehr as much magic as possible and create a safe haven for it, offering that druids can</p><p> study side by side with gnomes how to make nature and technology co-exist, but at the same time use</p><p> powerful magic that those that comes over their board are true to their word and bind them to their</p><p> agreement. </p><p></p><p> As soon as a reasonable power base at home is established, then seek out both parts to negotiate peace</p><p> treaty for the better of all.</p><p></p><p> hmm sounds like gun <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p> Lannon</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-07-2001 05:25 PM </p><p></p><p></p><p> quote:</p><p></p><p> Originally posted by Edena_of_Neith:</p><p></p><p> Very well. The above article makes sense. I'll go with it.</p><p></p><p> The dragons join the war on the side of the elves and druids.</p><p> The entrance of dragons into the war escalates everything dramatically.</p><p> Subsequently, there is colossal destruction as those dragons target industrial areas.</p><p> Huge explosions and fires destroy large areas of major cities. Dragons streak across the</p><p> skies, smashing trains and sinking ironbacks. The fledgling telegraph invented by the</p><p> gnomes, communications carried by wires, is shredded.</p><p> Farmers everywhere flee their fields, leaving their crops to rot, terrified of the death from</p><p> the sky. </p><p> Subsequently, anarchy and starvation, and disease, break out over wide areas of Faerun.</p><p></p><p> Now, there is GREAT anger against the elves, druids, and their draconic allies, because of the</p><p> massive civilian casualities.</p><p> In the city firestorms, thousands burned to death. Others lie crippled and maimed from</p><p> explosions. Strict rationing of food is in effect, and people spend much of their time in newly</p><p> built underground shelters.</p><p></p><p> The gnomes suffered less because they were underground heavily to begin with, but they</p><p> now firmly embrace their allies, and ignore all the deprivations their allies had been doing,</p><p> because what the dragons are doing is much worse.</p><p> The loose coalition of industrializing nations, previously only a loose confederation, declares</p><p> themselves unified against the foe.</p><p> They are taking the elves, druids, and dragons seriously now.</p><p> They are now longer thinking about defeating these enemies.</p><p> They are thinking about exterminating these enemies.</p><p> There is now a state of total war. </p><p> All elves caught in the gnomish/industrialized states regions are imprisoned or killed</p><p> outright.</p><p> All druidical religions are outlawed in these areas, the druids imprisoned or killed, and all</p><p> other clerical institutions are shut down or convert over to wartime, using their powers to aid</p><p> their native lands.</p><p></p><p></p><p> Very well the dragons are in it. Now its time to make them an offer. Look at this prototype most magnificent</p><p> dragon, for us this is a monstrously huge gun which would be unwieldy in combat and impossible for us to</p><p> use. For you it is the ultimate extension of your own prowess. We offer you a handgun for the dragon, no</p><p> other creature has the strength and power of you and your brethren. Only you dragons can use these</p><p> weapons... If you will take up arms on our side we will begin providing these arms to your most magnificent</p><p> selves. Will you be willing to aid us? </p><p></p><p> As for magic, we realize its usefulness. It helps our economy, helps production, and our mages can keep</p><p> their mages busy. </p><p></p><p> And remember to give our industrialized societies a chance to retaliate Edena, we have to be able to kill</p><p> some of these dragons and some of these mages...</p><p></p><p> I think its time to set some ounfriendly neighbors homes on fire, and I want to know about the dragons</p><p> responses.</p><p></p><p> been fun</p><p></p><p> maddman75</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-07-2001 05:39 PM </p><p></p><p> Alright boys and girls, try this one on for size....</p><p></p><p> The great technology war has spread across faerun. Several powerful characters would likely seek to escape</p><p> to somewhere saner. Some of them would undoubtedly make thier way to Sigil to relax a bit. </p><p></p><p> The planars would hear of this war between nature and the technology. The celestial would weep at the loss</p><p> of life. The Modrons might be tempted to go and join the gnomes. The Slaadi would eat whoever was trying</p><p> to tell them about it.</p><p></p><p> But the demons and devils would drool.</p><p></p><p> Both would want the weapons for the blood war. Devils would appear and make offers to the gnomes, help</p><p> against the nature lovers in exchange for thier weaponry.</p><p></p><p> The Demons would start raiding the gnomish areas mercilessly, stealing what they could. As the war</p><p> escalates, several Demon princes try to make deals with the nature lovers - we'll help you destroy the</p><p> techies, just let us take the stufff when the fighting is over.</p><p></p><p> It doesn't really matter if either side takes the fiends up on thier offer. They will see this as a possible edge</p><p> in their endless war. They will send fiend after fiend into faerun, fighting for all eternity. By the time the</p><p> gnomes or techies could be said to have won, the fiends will be so deeply entrinced they will have forgotten</p><p> why they are fighting on this plane in the first place. Faerun is now the from lines in the Blood War.</p><p></p><p> I hope you gnomes are happy!</p><p></p><p> ------------------</p><p> "If I ever get a tumor I'm gonna name it Marla."</p><p></p><p> Lannon</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-07-2001 06:02 PM </p><p></p><p> Furthermore, now that we have technology we are not as needful of magic arms for our men. Our mages</p><p> and dragons can be offered a large percentage of the magical spoils and we need only collect large amounts</p><p> of essential ore (iron, steel, etc). </p><p></p><p> As said we can use enhancements on our weapons. Our weapons can be enchanted. These can be accuracy</p><p> enchantments, speed enhancements etc.. Additionally our industrialized societies can keep working on</p><p> ammunition research, this is most important and needs to be developed. Furthermore, Edena has already</p><p> given us railroads, so technically we should already have cartridge loaded weaponry. This means that we</p><p> need only find the mechanisms appropriate for rapid fire capability (of course observe that at this time in</p><p> our own history the gatling gun was available and had a rate of fire that exceeded most modern machine</p><p> guns. These rapid firing weapons can be enchanted, perhaps an enchantment to have them spin the barrels</p><p> on their own... Of course when the technology comes along the magic can be replaced with the mechanics.). </p><p></p><p> Furthermore, its time to contact the dwarves. They should be informed that some are taking a negative view</p><p> of technology and may take some of their ire out on the followers of Clangeddin(sp?). We would like their</p><p> help, this will include an offer of peace and joint industrialization and research. "Your dwarven fighters will be</p><p> given the chance to be trained with our weaponry and the weaponry produced by the revolution in the future.</p><p> This will aid you in your war against the underdark races. And will further protect the dwarven nation from</p><p> dangerous outlanders. Additionally, your homes will no longer be inhabited by the putrid scum, orcs, and</p><p> drow. We ask only that we come together as brothers in this war against the barbaric magic users whom do</p><p> nothing but destroy our homes and unleash dragons in our midst. Will you join us?"</p><p></p><p> Furthermore, I want to point out the benefits of technology for those taking part in overland commerce.</p><p> Bodyguards can be armed with powerful weaponry that drastically increases survivability. Undoubtedly the</p><p> people without magic at hand will recognize its usefulness. And undoubtedly those men and women with</p><p> magic will recognize its ability to augment their own power. This should encourage some to join us.</p><p></p><p> Furthermore, I still do not see why some regions are going to be revolting against industrialiation. So far</p><p> only fringe groups have been presented as possible dissenters. I have yet to see a reasonable argument as</p><p> to why any *nation* would want to keep industrialization away from its borders. A non industrialized society</p><p> simply cannot compete with one that is (see civil war for examples). Furthermore, it provides additional</p><p> economic opportunities. The only people I have seen upset here are individual players that simply dont want</p><p> to see industry in the realms. I am not hearing from the huge *nations* that would be adopting this</p><p> technology. Provide some useful examples of why some nations would revolt against this and then we can</p><p> have a war. And if we are fighting, well then, all my suggestions above apply. We can make all these offers</p><p> to different factions, and more...</p><p></p><p> been fun</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> Edena_of_Neith</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-07-2001 09:41 PM </p><p></p><p> War Update #2:</p><p></p><p> The war is going very badly for the elves, druids, and their allies, both men and dragons.</p><p> Lannon is successfully talking dragons into switching sides! (you know how dragons are ... where there is</p><p> loot, there goes a dragon's heart)</p><p> Now the elves are learning what it means to suffer dragon attack.</p><p> Their forests are burning, their tree cities smashed asunder.</p><p> Sacred druid groves, it is discovered, make great aerial targets of opportunity, and the kindling left</p><p> afterwards makes a great bonfire.</p><p></p><p> Thanks to one Maddman75, a large number of Outsiders are joining the war, especially Fiends, and they are</p><p> taking both sides.</p><p> As long as mages are willing to let them into the world, these Outsiders continue to increase in number.</p><p></p><p> Another reason the technomancy is winning is simple: more people are supporting it than people are</p><p> supporting the elves/druids. </p><p> Just look at the list below! And I am guessing that, if more people on this list are taking the</p><p> technomancer's side, then surely PCs are lining up to fight for the technomancy!</p><p></p><p> On the side of the Elvish Alliance:</p><p></p><p> Blood Jester</p><p> Estlor</p><p> Victim</p><p></p><p> On the side of the Technomancy Confederation:</p><p></p><p> The Balor</p><p> Buzzard</p><p> Darwin of Mind</p><p> Dr Skull</p><p> Elfric</p><p> Gez</p><p> Icarus</p><p> Lannon</p><p> Zouron (secretly neutral)</p><p></p><p></p><p> Neutrals </p><p></p><p> Enkhidu</p><p> Naya</p><p> Paperboy</p><p></p><p> [This message has been edited by Edena_of_Neith (edited 04-07-2001).]</p><p></p><p> TheBalor</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-07-2001 09:51 PM </p><p></p><p> Whoah, whoah, my side is usin' FIENDS?!! I form a 4th party in this war. The people who want to stop this</p><p> war before the realms are ripped asunder (though I'm neither mage, engineer, nor elf or druid, so I don't</p><p> wield alot of power..) I think I could get most of the heros of the realm, plus alot of extraplanar help like</p><p> celestials, though I could just ask Eremith and have him make everyone kiss and make up before he gives</p><p> them the mental abilities of lizards. </p><p> (edit, lol, I just noticed that my stance on this runs contradictory to my sig and my name..)</p><p> ------------------</p><p> </p><p></p><p> If history is to change,let it change. If the world is to be destroyed, so be it. If it is my destiny to die, then I</p><p> must simply laugh.-The Magus</p><p></p><p> [This message has been edited by TheBalor (edited 04-07-2001).]</p><p></p><p> Edena_of_Neith</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-08-2001 03:28 AM </p><p></p><p> There have, indeed, been several calls for peace.</p><p></p><p> But peace requires you sit down with the enemy and negotiate.</p><p></p><p> Let us assume that is possible.</p><p> Let us assume both sides send negotiators.</p><p></p><p> What do you wish to negotiate?</p><p> What terms are you demanding of the other side?</p><p> What price must be paid for peace?</p><p></p><p> Forrester</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-08-2001 03:56 AM </p><p></p><p> You know, I know it seems like I'm going out on a limb here -- but I'm going to go AGAINST the Elvish</p><p> Alliance.</p><p></p><p> What the hay. Count my goblins 'n kobolds in . . . as long as nobody tries to kill 'em. We humanoids have</p><p> little problem with pollution -- and this technology stuff could move us out of the proverbial Stone Age. And</p><p> we hate the drow just as much as you above-worlders. </p><p></p><p> [This message has been edited by Forrester (edited 04-08-2001).]</p><p></p><p> Edena_of_Neith</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-08-2001 04:51 AM </p><p></p><p> You heard him (look just above)</p><p> And Forrester's word carries heavy weight against the elves.</p><p></p><p> Into the war come the goblins, hobgoblins, orcs, gnolls, kobolds, and more than a few other humanoid races</p><p> eager to take advantage of the chaos to carve out a home for themselves.</p><p></p><p> Will they cooperate with the gnomes?</p><p> Not likely.</p><p></p><p> Will they cooperate with the large, ruthless nations who have embraced technomancy, and who are offering</p><p> them large supplies of magical firearms, primitive explosives (and even a few magical gatling guns)?</p><p> You bet.</p><p></p><p> [This message has been edited by Edena_of_Neith (edited 04-08-2001).]</p><p></p><p> zouron</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-08-2001 09:33 AM </p><p></p><p> A negotiation of peace, would could prove very useful, I would as far do my best to convince both sides</p><p> negotiators should be someone very important so that both sides shows they are serious.</p><p></p><p> My necromancer would of course then have some of his most powerful minions he could gather (and that</p><p> noone knew he was associated with), break in and kidnap the ones in question. Keep them hidden. While</p><p> the two start fighting again (of course since they are sure the other side did it). </p><p> My necromancer would wait until both sides realise that neither side have the VIPs, then encourage his side</p><p> to send out a party of heroes to get their VIP back, also through whatever connection he might have,</p><p> throuygh middle men suggest the same to the nature side. </p><p> The plan would then be forcing them to work together using both their strengths equally to free the VIPs,</p><p> over an extremely long series of adventures. Then perhaps there would be a chance some actually with</p><p> power on both sides believes coorperation is possible and that both sides can live side by side, even without</p><p> great compromises. And of course offer that those who seek to know how it can be done, into the secrets of</p><p> the studies of nature/technology can coorperate (through magic of course), that has been researched by</p><p> those academics in his own "university". </p><p></p><p> At least it could give a minor start to peace, or an option, if it works.</p><p></p><p> Edena_of_Neith</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-08-2001 09:46 AM </p><p></p><p> Well, ok ...</p><p></p><p> The first effort at a diplomatic settlement between the Elven Alliance and the Technomancy Confederation</p><p> collapses when the diplomats on both sides are kidnapped.</p><p> Nobody knows where the diplomats are, or whether they are even alive.</p><p></p><p> Meanwhile, the war across Faerun rages on, and the Technomancer Confederacy is slowly gaining the upper</p><p> hand.</p><p></p><p> Will there be an effort to rescue the diplomats?</p><p> Will it be a joint effort?</p><p> That's up to you people out there ... what do your characters do?</p><p></p><p> Riot Gear</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-08-2001 09:57 AM </p><p></p><p> My character attempts to rescue the diplomats!</p><p></p><p> :: Rolls a d20. ::</p><p></p><p> ------------------</p><p> Grap a mop, there's going to be blood on the ceiling!!</p><p> -My character.</p><p></p><p> Blood Jester</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-08-2001 07:57 PM </p><p></p><p></p><p> quote:</p><p></p><p> Originally posted by Dr Skull:</p><p> I'd join the Gnomes in a second. (Besides the fact that I hate Druids and often play Gnomes.</p><p> Technology means more leisure and less hard work for more people, and I'm all for that.</p><p></p><p></p><p> Obviously you skipped the anthropology/sociology classes in college. The move away from a</p><p> hunter/gatherer society to an agricultural society drastically reduced leisure time. And later, the growth of</p><p> technology has reduced overall leisure time further still.</p><p></p><p> Blood Jester</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-08-2001 08:27 PM </p><p></p><p> Wait a minute, when did we lose the dragons? Just because the Techno's offered them guns? Creatures of</p><p> such awesome inherent power are going to be impressed by having to carry around a heavy, awkward</p><p> cannon? How about we show them how easy it is to carry off their entire horde with one of these nifty steam</p><p> engines? They live for hundreds of years, they might take a more long term view of the conflict. And as far</p><p> as them indecriminantly blasting apart the country-side, hey give us a little credit for tactics.</p><p></p><p> quote:</p><p></p><p> Originally posted by Lannon:</p><p></p><p> I think its time to set some ounfriendly neighbors homes on fire...</p><p></p><p></p><p> Start setting the Elven homes on fire and most of the good aligned human Kingdoms will have sympathy for</p><p> our side. Thanks for the new allies!</p><p></p><p> As far as the Dwarves go, let us point out to them how railways and steam engines will tear apart their</p><p> beloved mountains, earth, and rock. No skill, no personal effort, no respect for the Stone, just BOOM, and</p><p> no more mountain. And how the ease of rail travel will bring tourists to visit the 'cute little men' on a daily</p><p> basis.</p><p></p><p> And as far as 'wasting' one of you daily spell slots on 'spells to see the future', Wizards have been 'wasting'</p><p> their DIVINATIONS on such things since the birth of magic use. Many scholarly wizards would look into the</p><p> outcome of this new invention, and any remotely intelligent wizard would want to know how such a radical</p><p> new invention would impact them.</p><p></p><p> OT - as far as the 'quality' of Civil war guns...The arguments that prove the inferiority of those firearms to</p><p> bow and arrow are extensive, and I'm not a great typists, so I won't try to repeat them here. If you want see</p><p> an excellent scholarly presentation of the power of the bow, try to get a hold of the book (out of print)</p><p> Arrows Against Steel: A History of the Bow in Modern Warfare. Author Huxley.</p><p></p><p> Blood Jester</p><p></p><p> (P.S. - Edena, I think you missed on who brought in the Dragons )</p><p></p><p> Reprisal</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-08-2001 10:34 PM </p><p></p><p> All right, I have some logistical concerns for both sides in this struggle...</p><p></p><p> How many druids are there? Can they be everywhere at every time? The same rings true with mages, and</p><p> clerics. I read posts where there are druids and mages battling the Technocracy at every point, but are there</p><p> really that many? </p><p></p><p> I don't believe that mages, druids or clerics are all that prevalent in any world in D&D. Sure, they're bigshots</p><p> wherever you go, but that's a pretty big assumption in thinking that the old guard can fight them on their</p><p> own terms whenever they please...</p><p></p><p> If these magical troopers are on the front lines, they'll be nickle and dimed to death. The one thing that</p><p> rings true about tech is that you can afford to attrition your enemy to death. This is where humans come</p><p> in... who would join the side of the technocracy not because it will make their lives easier, but it will make it</p><p> more equal. When a man can hold a gun, or a better crossbow, or man a steam powered ironclad, and know</p><p> that he has a chance against the unknown magics of elf and druid, what's to stop him from joining that</p><p> side?</p><p></p><p> It can take a day to build a fine firearm, and given the level of Fordism I'm reading, they can be produced</p><p> in grosses. Gnomes behind the management and engineering, and the humans behind the machines and</p><p> on the front lines. Why would this happen? Because technology gives the common man/gnome the power to</p><p> do things only mages, clerics and druids could do... It raises up the commoner if not in reality, then</p><p> symbolically. How many have died for their King and Country? For their flag? For their brotherhood?</p><p> Symbolism is strong, and technology is the equalizer.</p><p></p><p> The elite are no longer the elite. When this sort of thing comes along, ideologies that support the fact that</p><p> all men are created equal (see Locke, Rousseau, Bentham, J.S. Miln et al)... When governments are</p><p> believed to serve the people and not the other way around, things will change.</p><p></p><p> This is not a war of ideology, though, it is a war of power... I shall return and further explain, but I'm gonna</p><p> go see a late showing of "Blow."</p><p></p><p> Rep.</p><p></p><p> ------------------</p><p> "Intelligence in chains loses in lucidity what it gains in intensity." - Albert Camus</p><p></p><p> Edena_of_Neith</p><p> Member </p><p> posted 04-09-2001 12:18 AM </p><p></p><p> War Update #3:</p><p></p><p> The elves have driven back the Technomancy, and the war is back to an even match now.</p><p> This is heavily due to the defection of The Balor to the elven side.</p><p></p><p> More and more Outsiders are coming into the conflict.</p><p> Unfortunately, both sides are quickly discovering the Outsiders are out of control ... anybody's control.</p><p></p><p> Riot Gear has successfully freed the diplomats.</p><p> However, Zouron was crafty, and the diplomats cannot identify who kidnapped them, or what happened to</p><p> them after being kidnapped (they have amnesia!)</p><p></p><p> Thanks to the efforts of Blood Jester, the elves have beaten back the Technomancy from their strongholds. </p><p> The Technomancy lost a lot of people as they were driven back.</p><p></p><p> Naya, using his slave labor factories employing half orc children, is growing very wealthy off this war (see his</p><p> Post, above.)</p><p></p><p> Some of the nations of Faerun, like Luruar - where elves and humans walk together in peace - are</p><p> struggling furiously to stay neutral in this war.</p><p></p><p> As the war rages, new and better firearms and explosives are being developed (war tends to have this effect</p><p> ... )</p><p> Somewhere, in some secret laboratory, someone has invented nitro-glycerin.</p><p> Someone, in another secret laboratory, has discovered how to make electricity run through a wire conduit.</p><p></p><p> ...</p><p></p><p> On the side of the Elvish Alliance:</p><p></p><p> The Balor (who just won a GREAT victory for the elves. In switching sides, he surprised and slew a large</p><p> number of the leaders and generals of the Technomancy. </p><p> The Technomancy has put an enormous reward out for The Balor!)</p><p> Blood Jester (who is working furiously to keep the dragons on the elven side. He's having some success ...</p><p> but the evil dragons are out of control now, and attacking both sides as they please)</p><p> Estlor</p><p> Victim</p><p></p><p> On the side of the Technomancy Confederation:</p><p></p><p> Buzzard</p><p> Darwin of Mind</p><p> Dr Skull</p><p> Elfric</p><p> Gez</p><p> Icarus</p><p> Lannon</p><p> Reprisal (He might have preferred to remain neutral, but when his views became known to the elves, they</p><p> tried to kill him)</p><p> Zouron (secretly neutral)</p><p></p><p> Neutrals </p><p></p><p> Enkhidu</p><p> Naya</p><p> Paperboy</p><p></p><p> [This message has been edited by Edena_of_Neith (edited 04-09-2001).]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Edena_of_Neith, post: 1302659, member: 2020"] [b](Post 3) Thread One of the 1st IR[/b] Icarus Member posted 04-06-2001 01:39 PM Well, it has been an interesting read, but now I think I'll answer the question. My players would either: A - jump on the tech bandwagon and milk it for all its worth. Or B - fight to the death against the encroaching technologies. Enkhidu Member posted 04-06-2001 02:03 PM As an interesting aside... You might want to pick up a book called The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump. It's a neat book that details a "modern" world that uses magic for all the little things that we use technology for. It's an interesting, Alternate Earth read. Enkhidu Edena_of_Neith Member posted 04-06-2001 09:12 PM Looking at the Posts above, I would have to conclude that the gnomes and their industrializing allies are currently winning the war against the elves and druids. Primarily because the gnomes and their allies are also using magic, in addition to their technology. They are combining technology and magic into technomagic. Their foes are only using pure magic. Also, the gnomes are winning because their allies are ruthless. Ruthless. These industrializing nations are willing to do whatever it takes to win, building ever better (and more horrific) weapons of war, attacking and burning whole elvish forests, devastating their own natural environments with mines and logging. The gnomes disavow such behavior, and do not engage in it, but they have no control over their power mad allies, who see technomagic as the way to world supremacy. The gnomes might even go to war against these nations, but the elves and druids are attacking them also, so the gnomes have no choice but to carry on their part of the war against said elves and druids. The nations who have joined the elves and druids are at a disadvantage. They have only pure magic, and no technomagic. Thus, they are outmatched. They are fighting hard, but the magical firearms and magical cannon, the enemy Ironbacks of the sea, are taking a heavy toll on them. Riot Gear Member posted 04-06-2001 09:47 PM My character, of no special importance, would definitely join the Technomagocracy. Guns are cool. "BANG! Hee hee hee he...." ------------------ Grap a mop, there's going to be blood on the ceiling!! -My character. TheBalor Member posted 04-06-2001 09:58 PM Lessee here...in one cornah lots of animals. With a teensy bit of magical backup. And a bunch of hippie elves. Against archmages, goodly, neutral, and evil priests, just about every nation/city-state/powerful orginization in the world that believes in progress, and better lives for their people(or more power). Huh. Who's in the right now? ------------------ DarwinofMind Member posted 04-07-2001 12:24 AM quote: Originally posted by Blood Jester: How does technology deal with Improved Invisibility? Remember, it's magic, I can see you, but I give off [b]no energy in ANY spectrum, if I did dwarves would be immune to Invisibility. Blood Jester [/B] Very simply, Eventually someone will invent RADAR or SONAR. In fact in a world with invisiblity they would be invented faster, Your not phased, the Radar or Sonar ping will bounce off you so slick, If you really want to hide from technology you have to go etherial, invisiblity isn't going to do it. Blood Jester Member posted 04-07-2001 12:48 AM Everyone seems to be overlooking those teensy-weensy magical critters we humbly refer to as DRAGONS. Since these guys are all intelligent enough to see a train-wreck headed their way, I think I can safely say they will pretty much unanimously way in on the side of us 'wussy' elves, druids, and critters. There is no way that the technomagic side can hope to scale up the pace of their discovery/invention cycle fast enough to counter these bad boys. Our side will use our magic (as well as their own) to buffer them against the 'magic' side of the technomagic coalition, and they can easily handle anything 'tech' that the fledgling technomagic forces can hurl at them. Score one for the good guys. Blood Jester ------------------ Laugh 'til you die. [This message has been edited by Blood Jester (edited 04-07-2001).] Blood Jester Member posted 04-07-2001 12:54 AM quote: Originally posted by DarwinofMind: Very simply, Eventually someone will invent RADAR or SONAR. In fact in a world with invisiblity they would be invented faster, Your not phased, the Radar or Sonar ping will bounce off you so slick, If you really want to hide from technology you have to go etherial, invisiblity isn't going to do it. Silence 15' Radius. Bye-bye Sonar. And I think RADAR will take long enough to develop to be irrelevant in our little conflict. And in the 'real' world, radar can NOT target accurately enough (from a hand-held unit) for a foot soldier to target an individual with a handgun unless they stand still for a long time and let him set up two tripods with RADAR and gun to target. ------------------ Laugh 'til you die. DarwinofMind Member posted 04-07-2001 01:22 AM Just as one final thing for everyone on this thread that seems to think that technology would never devolop in DND world becuase magic is better, You'ld better rule 0 out the crossbow. Oh while your at it, Rule 0 out the sword, It I can throw a fireball at you, why invent the sword. Technology just happens, It's so much better than spells that you can only use so many times a day. It's inevitable. None of your Eco Warriors are Eco Warriors becuase no one realizes without looking into the future that this is dangerous to the enviroment and no one is going to waste there per day spell alotment on looking into the future of this without reason. Edena_of_Neith Member posted 04-07-2001 02:19 AM Very well. The above article makes sense. I'll go with it. The dragons join the war on the side of the elves and druids. The entrance of dragons into the war escalates everything dramatically. Subsequently, there is colossal destruction as those dragons target industrial areas. Huge explosions and fires destroy large areas of major cities. Dragons streak across the skies, smashing trains and sinking ironbacks. The fledgling telegraph invented by the gnomes, communications carried by wires, is shredded. Farmers everywhere flee their fields, leaving their crops to rot, terrified of the death from the sky. Subsequently, anarchy and starvation, and disease, break out over wide areas of Faerun. Now, there is GREAT anger against the elves, druids, and their draconic allies, because of the massive civilian casualities. In the city firestorms, thousands burned to death. Others lie crippled and maimed from explosions. Strict rationing of food is in effect, and people spend much of their time in newly built underground shelters. The gnomes suffered less because they were underground heavily to begin with, but they now firmly embrace their allies, and ignore all the deprivations their allies had been doing, because what the dragons are doing is much worse. The loose coalition of industrializing nations, previously only a loose confederation, declares themselves unified against the foe. They are taking the elves, druids, and dragons seriously now. They are now longer thinking about defeating these enemies. They are thinking about exterminating these enemies. There is now a state of total war. All elves caught in the gnomish/industrialized states regions are imprisoned or killed outright. All druidical religions are outlawed in these areas, the druids imprisoned or killed, and all other clerical institutions are shut down or convert over to wartime, using their powers to aid their native lands. Edena_of_Neith Member posted 04-07-2001 02:34 AM Oh yes, I forgot something. Considering the capabilities of archmages and archmagistresses with Time Stop (see the thread How to cast 19 to 54 spells using the core rules): A second wave of massive destruction hits both sides as the archmages and archmagistresses take to the field. Kings and Queens die, their royal palaces are smashed flat, mage towers are blown to smithereens, secret fortresses annihilated, command and control centers disintegrated, and vast numbers of civilians flee the exposed cities for the imagined safety of forest and country. paperboy Member posted 04-07-2001 02:51 AM Hmmm . . . well, let's see. Gnomes, industrial revolution, capitalism, modernism, . . . I got it. I would wait it out. As a 25th level wizard I'd extend my life a good long time and wait for the world to turn real sour. We are talking full-on modernization of enough of the globe to create a worldwide consummer society that it totally dependant on what is essentially an information storage device. And THAT is when I will spring into action. I will rename myself "Bill Gates" and head up a 'company' called microsoft. Eventually I will become the single most wealthy and powerful mortal in existence and be able to defy even the gods. I figure by then I'll be like 90th level, if I play my cards right, and then I will simply ascend into the heavens with my unlimited power and cause no end of misery on earth. For you see, I will be an evil god who creates software that is glitchy and funky and dumb. Muhahah. MUhahah. MUAHAHAHH!!! . . . never let me post again. [This message has been edited by paperboy (edited 04-07-2001).] Edena_of_Neith Member posted 04-07-2001 03:03 AM War Update #1: On the side of the Elvish Alliance: Blood Jester (he was always on the elven side, and has won great renown) Estlor (he was always on the elven side, and is famous for talking the dragons into fighting on the elven side) Victim (he is famous for helping to start the war, with his massive sabotage of machines, factories, depots, and the destruction of vast amounts of gnomish research. He's still fighting, leading his covert forces to victory) On the side of the Technomancy Confederation: The Balor (he was neutral, but he didn't like elves or druids, apparently - they tried to arrest him, so he joined the technomancy) Darwin of Mind (he was neutral, but his opinions caused the elves to arrest him: he's escaped and joined the technomancy) Gez (he was always on the technomancer side, and he is ardently fighting in their cause) Icarus (he's actually on both sides, but nevermind that ... ) Lannon (he's been on the technomancer side from the start, and has won great victories for them) Riot Gear (he's eagerly joined the technomancer side) Neutrals Enkhidu (this philosophical character is contemplating it all, and trying to stay out of the mess) Naya (not on either side, but he IS now a wealthy character: his war profiteering and slave labor tactics have filled his secret treasury with a million gold pieces) Paperboy (he, like a lot of other figures in the shadows, is waiting for the war to end so he can take over in the ensuing power vacuum) Upper Krust, where are you?! You could end this war - you're bright enough to figure out the way to finish it ... [This message has been edited by Edena_of_Neith (edited 04-07-2001).] elfric Member posted 04-07-2001 08:48 AM My gnome would be in the front of the train shouting "stupid humans it´s our time now" lalalalala This topic is 16 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 All times are Central Time (US) This is an ARCHIVED topic. You may not reply to it! Hop to: Contact Us | D&D 3rd Edition News Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47b Note: This is an archived topic. It is read-only. D&D 3rd Edition News Board Other Archived Stuff What would your PCs do if gnomes invented the Industrial Revolution? (Page 4) UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! profile | register | preferences | faq | search This topic is 16 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 This topic was originally posted in this forum: General RPG Discussion Author Topic: What would your PCs do if gnomes invented the Industrial Revolution? Dr Skull Member posted 04-07-2001 09:16 AM I'd join the Gnomes in a second. (Besides the fact that I hate Druids and often play Gnomes. Technology means more leisure and less hard work for more people, and I'm all for that. ------------------ Dr Skull Infidel defilers, they shall all drown in lakes of blood. buzzard Member posted 04-07-2001 10:05 AM quote: Originally posted by Blood Jester: How does technology deal with Improved Invisibility? Remember, it's magic, I can see you, but I give off [b]no energy in ANY spectrum, if I did dwarves would be immune to Invisibility. As far as bullets, you are forgetting Protection from Normal Missiles. As far as the early days of the war go, our own history tell you that a squad of archers will annihilate easily twice their number of musket, or even single shot rifle types. Our world had many cultural blocks to the growth of archer based armies. The few who utilized archers gained overwhelming victories in what seemed to be one sided battles against them. In a world with such things as Elven nations dedicated to archery, and archer based military, the early gunners and artillerists are screwed. Guns became popular because any idiot can pick one up and kill with it with no training, but if there had been an army against it's makers, and they (the pro-tech types) had armed their soldiers with, say, Civil War era guns, the archers would win with very few casualties. The guns development would have ended right then and there, along with the rest of the 'Industrial Revolution' that the Elvish army was out to halt. (And btw, trained police officers, who I respect, miss way more than two thirds of their shots at shoot-out ranges of under six feet according to their own statistics.) Blood Jester [/B] I'd restate your anti-tech argument if I were you. Civil war guns are actually enough superior to bows and arrows to prove you wrong. Earlier ones were pretty poor, but once the Minie ball was introduced, there was a sea change in warfare. The Minie ball allowed for reasonable rapid reloading of rifled weapons. This increased effective range to something like 1000 yards. No bow can do that. Also given the pre packages charges and bullets, reloading was not so slow anymore. You took out the paper case, tore it with your teeth, poured it down the barrel, dropped a bullet on it (I'm not sure if you had to pack it down or not in this era, you probably did), placed a percussion cap on the firing pan, and BLAM. Then you could really reach out and touch someone. The civil war was so bloody because technology had advanced while tactics hadn't. Also the Civil war did see the introduction of repeating rifles (the Henry and the Spencer), breechloading artillery, and the Gatling gun. Protection from normal missiles will do nothing against artillery. Improved invisibility won't do much against massed fire into the area. However, if you are talking about earlier weapons, like American Revolutionary War period, then yes, those muskets sucked. However the case was made for Railroad era technology, and since weapons always keep pace with other technology, I'd say the mages are in trouble. Also the real advantage of the tech side- logistics. Railroads mean you can get your troops to any battle much more quickly. Thus troops don't need to be dispersed to guard a front. Also re-supply becomes much easier. I'm not saying that it's be a romp or anything, but technology does have its advantages. Buzzard zouron Member posted 04-07-2001 04:17 PM My level 25th necromancer (actually he is more but that is another matter) would make alliances on the technomancer sides early, and while the was escalate gather an huge army of undead to protect his interest, while he would aid the gnome with extensive magical knowledge and research. His life devoted to the study of magic he would use his alliance with the gnomes to gather all magical material book, knowledge and so on he could, make his carstle a sanctuary for all people devoted solely to magic as a protection. By the time the dragons do enter the war and the time mage do start his estate would be well protected by the magic and observing the war, the gnomes no longer completely honouring their agreement would still be kept allianced, but in a passive way. My necromancer would gather those he could and prepare for the gods interception in the war, just in case setting up a stronghold on a demiplane specifically created for this, gather all things magical they can. The undead armies gathered would still be guarding the estate but also expanding their territory gathering land as far as possible, devoting the land to the study of magic, integrrated with technology and as a stand alone, using whatever means of magic and technology to keep enemies at bay. This there is a large focus on magic education of youth also becomes an important part of those villages/towns gathered under their rule. The plan is to gatehr as much magic as possible and create a safe haven for it, offering that druids can study side by side with gnomes how to make nature and technology co-exist, but at the same time use powerful magic that those that comes over their board are true to their word and bind them to their agreement. As soon as a reasonable power base at home is established, then seek out both parts to negotiate peace treaty for the better of all. hmm sounds like gun :-) Lannon Member posted 04-07-2001 05:25 PM quote: Originally posted by Edena_of_Neith: Very well. The above article makes sense. I'll go with it. The dragons join the war on the side of the elves and druids. The entrance of dragons into the war escalates everything dramatically. Subsequently, there is colossal destruction as those dragons target industrial areas. Huge explosions and fires destroy large areas of major cities. Dragons streak across the skies, smashing trains and sinking ironbacks. The fledgling telegraph invented by the gnomes, communications carried by wires, is shredded. Farmers everywhere flee their fields, leaving their crops to rot, terrified of the death from the sky. Subsequently, anarchy and starvation, and disease, break out over wide areas of Faerun. Now, there is GREAT anger against the elves, druids, and their draconic allies, because of the massive civilian casualities. In the city firestorms, thousands burned to death. Others lie crippled and maimed from explosions. Strict rationing of food is in effect, and people spend much of their time in newly built underground shelters. The gnomes suffered less because they were underground heavily to begin with, but they now firmly embrace their allies, and ignore all the deprivations their allies had been doing, because what the dragons are doing is much worse. The loose coalition of industrializing nations, previously only a loose confederation, declares themselves unified against the foe. They are taking the elves, druids, and dragons seriously now. They are now longer thinking about defeating these enemies. They are thinking about exterminating these enemies. There is now a state of total war. All elves caught in the gnomish/industrialized states regions are imprisoned or killed outright. All druidical religions are outlawed in these areas, the druids imprisoned or killed, and all other clerical institutions are shut down or convert over to wartime, using their powers to aid their native lands. Very well the dragons are in it. Now its time to make them an offer. Look at this prototype most magnificent dragon, for us this is a monstrously huge gun which would be unwieldy in combat and impossible for us to use. For you it is the ultimate extension of your own prowess. We offer you a handgun for the dragon, no other creature has the strength and power of you and your brethren. Only you dragons can use these weapons... If you will take up arms on our side we will begin providing these arms to your most magnificent selves. Will you be willing to aid us? As for magic, we realize its usefulness. It helps our economy, helps production, and our mages can keep their mages busy. And remember to give our industrialized societies a chance to retaliate Edena, we have to be able to kill some of these dragons and some of these mages... I think its time to set some ounfriendly neighbors homes on fire, and I want to know about the dragons responses. been fun maddman75 Member posted 04-07-2001 05:39 PM Alright boys and girls, try this one on for size.... The great technology war has spread across faerun. Several powerful characters would likely seek to escape to somewhere saner. Some of them would undoubtedly make thier way to Sigil to relax a bit. The planars would hear of this war between nature and the technology. The celestial would weep at the loss of life. The Modrons might be tempted to go and join the gnomes. The Slaadi would eat whoever was trying to tell them about it. But the demons and devils would drool. Both would want the weapons for the blood war. Devils would appear and make offers to the gnomes, help against the nature lovers in exchange for thier weaponry. The Demons would start raiding the gnomish areas mercilessly, stealing what they could. As the war escalates, several Demon princes try to make deals with the nature lovers - we'll help you destroy the techies, just let us take the stufff when the fighting is over. It doesn't really matter if either side takes the fiends up on thier offer. They will see this as a possible edge in their endless war. They will send fiend after fiend into faerun, fighting for all eternity. By the time the gnomes or techies could be said to have won, the fiends will be so deeply entrinced they will have forgotten why they are fighting on this plane in the first place. Faerun is now the from lines in the Blood War. I hope you gnomes are happy! ------------------ "If I ever get a tumor I'm gonna name it Marla." Lannon Member posted 04-07-2001 06:02 PM Furthermore, now that we have technology we are not as needful of magic arms for our men. Our mages and dragons can be offered a large percentage of the magical spoils and we need only collect large amounts of essential ore (iron, steel, etc). As said we can use enhancements on our weapons. Our weapons can be enchanted. These can be accuracy enchantments, speed enhancements etc.. Additionally our industrialized societies can keep working on ammunition research, this is most important and needs to be developed. Furthermore, Edena has already given us railroads, so technically we should already have cartridge loaded weaponry. This means that we need only find the mechanisms appropriate for rapid fire capability (of course observe that at this time in our own history the gatling gun was available and had a rate of fire that exceeded most modern machine guns. These rapid firing weapons can be enchanted, perhaps an enchantment to have them spin the barrels on their own... Of course when the technology comes along the magic can be replaced with the mechanics.). Furthermore, its time to contact the dwarves. They should be informed that some are taking a negative view of technology and may take some of their ire out on the followers of Clangeddin(sp?). We would like their help, this will include an offer of peace and joint industrialization and research. "Your dwarven fighters will be given the chance to be trained with our weaponry and the weaponry produced by the revolution in the future. This will aid you in your war against the underdark races. And will further protect the dwarven nation from dangerous outlanders. Additionally, your homes will no longer be inhabited by the putrid scum, orcs, and drow. We ask only that we come together as brothers in this war against the barbaric magic users whom do nothing but destroy our homes and unleash dragons in our midst. Will you join us?" Furthermore, I want to point out the benefits of technology for those taking part in overland commerce. Bodyguards can be armed with powerful weaponry that drastically increases survivability. Undoubtedly the people without magic at hand will recognize its usefulness. And undoubtedly those men and women with magic will recognize its ability to augment their own power. This should encourage some to join us. Furthermore, I still do not see why some regions are going to be revolting against industrialiation. So far only fringe groups have been presented as possible dissenters. I have yet to see a reasonable argument as to why any *nation* would want to keep industrialization away from its borders. A non industrialized society simply cannot compete with one that is (see civil war for examples). Furthermore, it provides additional economic opportunities. The only people I have seen upset here are individual players that simply dont want to see industry in the realms. I am not hearing from the huge *nations* that would be adopting this technology. Provide some useful examples of why some nations would revolt against this and then we can have a war. And if we are fighting, well then, all my suggestions above apply. We can make all these offers to different factions, and more... been fun Edena_of_Neith Member posted 04-07-2001 09:41 PM War Update #2: The war is going very badly for the elves, druids, and their allies, both men and dragons. Lannon is successfully talking dragons into switching sides! (you know how dragons are ... where there is loot, there goes a dragon's heart) Now the elves are learning what it means to suffer dragon attack. Their forests are burning, their tree cities smashed asunder. Sacred druid groves, it is discovered, make great aerial targets of opportunity, and the kindling left afterwards makes a great bonfire. Thanks to one Maddman75, a large number of Outsiders are joining the war, especially Fiends, and they are taking both sides. As long as mages are willing to let them into the world, these Outsiders continue to increase in number. Another reason the technomancy is winning is simple: more people are supporting it than people are supporting the elves/druids. Just look at the list below! And I am guessing that, if more people on this list are taking the technomancer's side, then surely PCs are lining up to fight for the technomancy! On the side of the Elvish Alliance: Blood Jester Estlor Victim On the side of the Technomancy Confederation: The Balor Buzzard Darwin of Mind Dr Skull Elfric Gez Icarus Lannon Zouron (secretly neutral) Neutrals Enkhidu Naya Paperboy [This message has been edited by Edena_of_Neith (edited 04-07-2001).] TheBalor Member posted 04-07-2001 09:51 PM Whoah, whoah, my side is usin' FIENDS?!! I form a 4th party in this war. The people who want to stop this war before the realms are ripped asunder (though I'm neither mage, engineer, nor elf or druid, so I don't wield alot of power..) I think I could get most of the heros of the realm, plus alot of extraplanar help like celestials, though I could just ask Eremith and have him make everyone kiss and make up before he gives them the mental abilities of lizards. (edit, lol, I just noticed that my stance on this runs contradictory to my sig and my name..) ------------------ If history is to change,let it change. If the world is to be destroyed, so be it. If it is my destiny to die, then I must simply laugh.-The Magus [This message has been edited by TheBalor (edited 04-07-2001).] Edena_of_Neith Member posted 04-08-2001 03:28 AM There have, indeed, been several calls for peace. But peace requires you sit down with the enemy and negotiate. Let us assume that is possible. Let us assume both sides send negotiators. What do you wish to negotiate? What terms are you demanding of the other side? What price must be paid for peace? Forrester Member posted 04-08-2001 03:56 AM You know, I know it seems like I'm going out on a limb here -- but I'm going to go AGAINST the Elvish Alliance. What the hay. Count my goblins 'n kobolds in . . . as long as nobody tries to kill 'em. We humanoids have little problem with pollution -- and this technology stuff could move us out of the proverbial Stone Age. And we hate the drow just as much as you above-worlders. [This message has been edited by Forrester (edited 04-08-2001).] Edena_of_Neith Member posted 04-08-2001 04:51 AM You heard him (look just above) And Forrester's word carries heavy weight against the elves. Into the war come the goblins, hobgoblins, orcs, gnolls, kobolds, and more than a few other humanoid races eager to take advantage of the chaos to carve out a home for themselves. Will they cooperate with the gnomes? Not likely. Will they cooperate with the large, ruthless nations who have embraced technomancy, and who are offering them large supplies of magical firearms, primitive explosives (and even a few magical gatling guns)? You bet. [This message has been edited by Edena_of_Neith (edited 04-08-2001).] zouron Member posted 04-08-2001 09:33 AM A negotiation of peace, would could prove very useful, I would as far do my best to convince both sides negotiators should be someone very important so that both sides shows they are serious. My necromancer would of course then have some of his most powerful minions he could gather (and that noone knew he was associated with), break in and kidnap the ones in question. Keep them hidden. While the two start fighting again (of course since they are sure the other side did it). My necromancer would wait until both sides realise that neither side have the VIPs, then encourage his side to send out a party of heroes to get their VIP back, also through whatever connection he might have, throuygh middle men suggest the same to the nature side. The plan would then be forcing them to work together using both their strengths equally to free the VIPs, over an extremely long series of adventures. Then perhaps there would be a chance some actually with power on both sides believes coorperation is possible and that both sides can live side by side, even without great compromises. And of course offer that those who seek to know how it can be done, into the secrets of the studies of nature/technology can coorperate (through magic of course), that has been researched by those academics in his own "university". At least it could give a minor start to peace, or an option, if it works. Edena_of_Neith Member posted 04-08-2001 09:46 AM Well, ok ... The first effort at a diplomatic settlement between the Elven Alliance and the Technomancy Confederation collapses when the diplomats on both sides are kidnapped. Nobody knows where the diplomats are, or whether they are even alive. Meanwhile, the war across Faerun rages on, and the Technomancer Confederacy is slowly gaining the upper hand. Will there be an effort to rescue the diplomats? Will it be a joint effort? That's up to you people out there ... what do your characters do? Riot Gear Member posted 04-08-2001 09:57 AM My character attempts to rescue the diplomats! :: Rolls a d20. :: ------------------ Grap a mop, there's going to be blood on the ceiling!! -My character. Blood Jester Member posted 04-08-2001 07:57 PM quote: Originally posted by Dr Skull: I'd join the Gnomes in a second. (Besides the fact that I hate Druids and often play Gnomes. Technology means more leisure and less hard work for more people, and I'm all for that. Obviously you skipped the anthropology/sociology classes in college. The move away from a hunter/gatherer society to an agricultural society drastically reduced leisure time. And later, the growth of technology has reduced overall leisure time further still. Blood Jester Member posted 04-08-2001 08:27 PM Wait a minute, when did we lose the dragons? Just because the Techno's offered them guns? Creatures of such awesome inherent power are going to be impressed by having to carry around a heavy, awkward cannon? How about we show them how easy it is to carry off their entire horde with one of these nifty steam engines? They live for hundreds of years, they might take a more long term view of the conflict. And as far as them indecriminantly blasting apart the country-side, hey give us a little credit for tactics. quote: Originally posted by Lannon: I think its time to set some ounfriendly neighbors homes on fire... Start setting the Elven homes on fire and most of the good aligned human Kingdoms will have sympathy for our side. Thanks for the new allies! As far as the Dwarves go, let us point out to them how railways and steam engines will tear apart their beloved mountains, earth, and rock. No skill, no personal effort, no respect for the Stone, just BOOM, and no more mountain. And how the ease of rail travel will bring tourists to visit the 'cute little men' on a daily basis. And as far as 'wasting' one of you daily spell slots on 'spells to see the future', Wizards have been 'wasting' their DIVINATIONS on such things since the birth of magic use. Many scholarly wizards would look into the outcome of this new invention, and any remotely intelligent wizard would want to know how such a radical new invention would impact them. OT - as far as the 'quality' of Civil war guns...The arguments that prove the inferiority of those firearms to bow and arrow are extensive, and I'm not a great typists, so I won't try to repeat them here. If you want see an excellent scholarly presentation of the power of the bow, try to get a hold of the book (out of print) Arrows Against Steel: A History of the Bow in Modern Warfare. Author Huxley. Blood Jester (P.S. - Edena, I think you missed on who brought in the Dragons ) Reprisal Member posted 04-08-2001 10:34 PM All right, I have some logistical concerns for both sides in this struggle... How many druids are there? Can they be everywhere at every time? The same rings true with mages, and clerics. I read posts where there are druids and mages battling the Technocracy at every point, but are there really that many? I don't believe that mages, druids or clerics are all that prevalent in any world in D&D. Sure, they're bigshots wherever you go, but that's a pretty big assumption in thinking that the old guard can fight them on their own terms whenever they please... If these magical troopers are on the front lines, they'll be nickle and dimed to death. The one thing that rings true about tech is that you can afford to attrition your enemy to death. This is where humans come in... who would join the side of the technocracy not because it will make their lives easier, but it will make it more equal. When a man can hold a gun, or a better crossbow, or man a steam powered ironclad, and know that he has a chance against the unknown magics of elf and druid, what's to stop him from joining that side? It can take a day to build a fine firearm, and given the level of Fordism I'm reading, they can be produced in grosses. Gnomes behind the management and engineering, and the humans behind the machines and on the front lines. Why would this happen? Because technology gives the common man/gnome the power to do things only mages, clerics and druids could do... It raises up the commoner if not in reality, then symbolically. How many have died for their King and Country? For their flag? For their brotherhood? Symbolism is strong, and technology is the equalizer. The elite are no longer the elite. When this sort of thing comes along, ideologies that support the fact that all men are created equal (see Locke, Rousseau, Bentham, J.S. Miln et al)... When governments are believed to serve the people and not the other way around, things will change. This is not a war of ideology, though, it is a war of power... I shall return and further explain, but I'm gonna go see a late showing of "Blow." Rep. ------------------ "Intelligence in chains loses in lucidity what it gains in intensity." - Albert Camus Edena_of_Neith Member posted 04-09-2001 12:18 AM War Update #3: The elves have driven back the Technomancy, and the war is back to an even match now. This is heavily due to the defection of The Balor to the elven side. More and more Outsiders are coming into the conflict. Unfortunately, both sides are quickly discovering the Outsiders are out of control ... anybody's control. Riot Gear has successfully freed the diplomats. However, Zouron was crafty, and the diplomats cannot identify who kidnapped them, or what happened to them after being kidnapped (they have amnesia!) Thanks to the efforts of Blood Jester, the elves have beaten back the Technomancy from their strongholds. The Technomancy lost a lot of people as they were driven back. Naya, using his slave labor factories employing half orc children, is growing very wealthy off this war (see his Post, above.) Some of the nations of Faerun, like Luruar - where elves and humans walk together in peace - are struggling furiously to stay neutral in this war. As the war rages, new and better firearms and explosives are being developed (war tends to have this effect ... ) Somewhere, in some secret laboratory, someone has invented nitro-glycerin. Someone, in another secret laboratory, has discovered how to make electricity run through a wire conduit. ... On the side of the Elvish Alliance: The Balor (who just won a GREAT victory for the elves. In switching sides, he surprised and slew a large number of the leaders and generals of the Technomancy. The Technomancy has put an enormous reward out for The Balor!) Blood Jester (who is working furiously to keep the dragons on the elven side. He's having some success ... but the evil dragons are out of control now, and attacking both sides as they please) Estlor Victim On the side of the Technomancy Confederation: Buzzard Darwin of Mind Dr Skull Elfric Gez Icarus Lannon Reprisal (He might have preferred to remain neutral, but when his views became known to the elves, they tried to kill him) Zouron (secretly neutral) Neutrals Enkhidu Naya Paperboy [This message has been edited by Edena_of_Neith (edited 04-09-2001).] [/QUOTE]
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