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<blockquote data-quote="GMforPowergamers" data-source="post: 8716219" data-attributes="member: 67338"><p>okay lets see if this is true... DMG says at level 11 you should have 6-8 encounters in a day.</p><p>I will go with 7, nice middle</p><p></p><p>now AC is hard to acunt for an average I am pulling 16 out of my but</p><p>[SPOILER="fun fact"]fun fact: a CR1 Hobgoblin has AC 18 while a CR24 Ancient Red Dragon has AC 22. That's 23 CRs of difference, but only 4 AC between them. What?[/SPOILER]</p><p></p><p>give a fighter a 20 str a +1 long sword and 3 attacks per round + action surge 1/short rest.</p><p></p><p>Prof is +4 (I think) so fighter has 4+5+1 for +10... he only needs a 5 or higher in this example that should give him a BIG head start he also crits on a 19+ so that too is a big boon. average hit deals 10 slashing (magic) and crit deals 15 slashing magic and he hits 70% of the time and crits 10% of the time... so 7+1.5= 8.5 dpr but I HATE decmils so lets round up and call that 9.</p><p></p><p>average fight is like 4 rounds, he can use his action surge lets say 2/day (so 1 or 2 short rests) so 28 rounds 3 attacks per round +6 extra attacks 86 attacks... but I mean he might get like an opp attack here or there lets just call it an even 90...</p><p></p><p>90x 8.5 is 765 damage </p><p></p><p>now I am not super great at math so everyone please check my math... but I'll call that 770 just to keep with rounding up... how many spells do I need to use to do 770 damage? </p><p></p><p>the wizard has 4/3/3/3/2/1 and can use arcane recover to call back 5... </p><p>disintegrate does 10d6+40 or 0 lets say I am smart and target someone without legendary rest and with a low to mid con save... we will give a +3 (a lot of monsters don't have that high in all saves) my DC will be based on a +1 item like fighters sword and 20 int like fighters str... so 8+1+5+4 DC 18 and so they need a 15 or higher to save so success 75ish % of the time for 75 force damage average... but thats only 1/day.</p><p>lets move to the 2 5th level spells. cone of cold does 8d8 to 2+ targets but they get a save for half... lets say 1 makes it 1 fails average damage so 36 damage to one and 18 to the other</p><p>I will do that twice and say 75+36+36+18+18=183pts and my 3 best slots are gone.</p><p>4th level Blight doest 8d8 save for half and phantasmal killer would most likely do better or even up cast AOE, but lets go with 3 blights they make teh save twice and fail once... so 36+18+18=72 bringing my total up to 255</p><p>down to ONLY 3rd level spells... fireball it is and with 3 of them I think it's only fair to say at least once I get 3 enemies in there... so 9 targets over time I will say 4 make teh save 5 fail (this you might argue is too nice to wizard) average damage is 28 or 14... 28*5 + 14*4 196 that brings my total up to 451 damage</p><p>2nd level spells I am going to skip and just up cast magic missile (not to be nice just cause I am sick of math) so 12 missiles from 2nd level and 12 from 1st level spells each missile auto hits for 3.5 force on average so 84 damage total up to 535... </p><p></p><p>but what about cantrips... how many rounds was that 16 rounds to unload my spells and there are 28 rounds so that leave 12 more for cantrips... I will take toll the dead, only target less then full hp targets and 1/3 of targets make the save... so 8* 3d12+3 damage. 22 damage 8 time is 88</p><p></p><p>so that brings the wizard with cantrips and spells all to damage (not even all the most optimal cause I got sick of math) to 623. I'm going to round that down to 620.</p><p></p><p>so that brings teh TLDR to 770 damage from the fighter and 620 damage from the wizard that is ONLY trying to do damage...</p><p></p><p>that almost looks good, 150pts of damage over the course of the day.</p><p></p><p></p><p>but wait we have that the wizard can get that close when doing what the fighter does best...</p><p></p><p>how do you DPR hold person, or charm person ending an encounter, tasha's uncontrolable laugh that might as well be hold a level sooner. how does making an enemy spell caster skip there turn do to noting since it was counter spelled? </p><p></p><p>and that's just the combat options, becuse the wizard can do OUT of combat things with those spells that change teh game in ways fighters can't... and any out of combat utility a fighter gets from creative rp or skill use the wizard can get too.</p><p></p><p> but wait at 10th level with a 20 Int how many spells can a wizard prep? 15 counting my debate about phantasmal killer or blight as preping both that is 8 spells... about 1/2 my spells preped... I can still prep shield and absorb elements and then 5 non combat spells... and if I know we are going to do no combat stuff I can trade a few combat ones for other nitch spells since I know 26 if we never found any as treasure. </p><p></p><p>and notice I didn't use arcane recovery even though I mentioned it... and I gave fighter the champion 19+ crit range but didn't give the wizard a subclass ability (some that are quite good... replace a SoD/SoS save with a low rolled portent can make a diviner 1 shot the BBEG)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="GMforPowergamers, post: 8716219, member: 67338"] okay lets see if this is true... DMG says at level 11 you should have 6-8 encounters in a day. I will go with 7, nice middle now AC is hard to acunt for an average I am pulling 16 out of my but [SPOILER="fun fact"]fun fact: a CR1 Hobgoblin has AC 18 while a CR24 Ancient Red Dragon has AC 22. That's 23 CRs of difference, but only 4 AC between them. What?[/SPOILER] give a fighter a 20 str a +1 long sword and 3 attacks per round + action surge 1/short rest. Prof is +4 (I think) so fighter has 4+5+1 for +10... he only needs a 5 or higher in this example that should give him a BIG head start he also crits on a 19+ so that too is a big boon. average hit deals 10 slashing (magic) and crit deals 15 slashing magic and he hits 70% of the time and crits 10% of the time... so 7+1.5= 8.5 dpr but I HATE decmils so lets round up and call that 9. average fight is like 4 rounds, he can use his action surge lets say 2/day (so 1 or 2 short rests) so 28 rounds 3 attacks per round +6 extra attacks 86 attacks... but I mean he might get like an opp attack here or there lets just call it an even 90... 90x 8.5 is 765 damage now I am not super great at math so everyone please check my math... but I'll call that 770 just to keep with rounding up... how many spells do I need to use to do 770 damage? the wizard has 4/3/3/3/2/1 and can use arcane recover to call back 5... disintegrate does 10d6+40 or 0 lets say I am smart and target someone without legendary rest and with a low to mid con save... we will give a +3 (a lot of monsters don't have that high in all saves) my DC will be based on a +1 item like fighters sword and 20 int like fighters str... so 8+1+5+4 DC 18 and so they need a 15 or higher to save so success 75ish % of the time for 75 force damage average... but thats only 1/day. lets move to the 2 5th level spells. cone of cold does 8d8 to 2+ targets but they get a save for half... lets say 1 makes it 1 fails average damage so 36 damage to one and 18 to the other I will do that twice and say 75+36+36+18+18=183pts and my 3 best slots are gone. 4th level Blight doest 8d8 save for half and phantasmal killer would most likely do better or even up cast AOE, but lets go with 3 blights they make teh save twice and fail once... so 36+18+18=72 bringing my total up to 255 down to ONLY 3rd level spells... fireball it is and with 3 of them I think it's only fair to say at least once I get 3 enemies in there... so 9 targets over time I will say 4 make teh save 5 fail (this you might argue is too nice to wizard) average damage is 28 or 14... 28*5 + 14*4 196 that brings my total up to 451 damage 2nd level spells I am going to skip and just up cast magic missile (not to be nice just cause I am sick of math) so 12 missiles from 2nd level and 12 from 1st level spells each missile auto hits for 3.5 force on average so 84 damage total up to 535... but what about cantrips... how many rounds was that 16 rounds to unload my spells and there are 28 rounds so that leave 12 more for cantrips... I will take toll the dead, only target less then full hp targets and 1/3 of targets make the save... so 8* 3d12+3 damage. 22 damage 8 time is 88 so that brings the wizard with cantrips and spells all to damage (not even all the most optimal cause I got sick of math) to 623. I'm going to round that down to 620. so that brings teh TLDR to 770 damage from the fighter and 620 damage from the wizard that is ONLY trying to do damage... that almost looks good, 150pts of damage over the course of the day. but wait we have that the wizard can get that close when doing what the fighter does best... how do you DPR hold person, or charm person ending an encounter, tasha's uncontrolable laugh that might as well be hold a level sooner. how does making an enemy spell caster skip there turn do to noting since it was counter spelled? and that's just the combat options, becuse the wizard can do OUT of combat things with those spells that change teh game in ways fighters can't... and any out of combat utility a fighter gets from creative rp or skill use the wizard can get too. but wait at 10th level with a 20 Int how many spells can a wizard prep? 15 counting my debate about phantasmal killer or blight as preping both that is 8 spells... about 1/2 my spells preped... I can still prep shield and absorb elements and then 5 non combat spells... and if I know we are going to do no combat stuff I can trade a few combat ones for other nitch spells since I know 26 if we never found any as treasure. and notice I didn't use arcane recovery even though I mentioned it... and I gave fighter the champion 19+ crit range but didn't give the wizard a subclass ability (some that are quite good... replace a SoD/SoS save with a low rolled portent can make a diviner 1 shot the BBEG) [/QUOTE]
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