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Is a more OD&D feel game the natural evolutionary endpoint? Is OD&D actually AD&D?
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<blockquote data-quote="Mercurius" data-source="post: 4740700" data-attributes="member: 59082"><p>To be clear, when I wrote "that's what its all about" I wasn't specifically talking about the old school renaissance but roleplaying itself. And of course I know that statement isn't, technically, true in an absolute sense but expressing a sentiment about the importance of imagination to the RPG experience and how it differs from, say, computer games--and specifically the (or a major) reason why RPGers play RPGs and not computer games. The biggest difference between the two is the use of imagination.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, agreed.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, and I understand and agree with this as a general trend. Yet what I'm trying to point out is that the old school vibe does not require a return to OD&D or one of its clones--or any rules lite system or specific system at all. I mean, AD&D is often equated with the old school vibe and I wouldn't call it rules lite (rather, rules clunky <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" />). But to say that the old school vibe requires a return to rules lite would be misleading, in my opinion. To put it another way, the two--rules complexity and old school free play--are not dependent upon each other; yes, they do influence each other, but one doesn't require, necessitate or cause the other. However it could be argued, I think, that a "rules medium" or less may be needed for the free form aspect of old school; or at least "rules flexibility" or "rules non-attachment."</p><p></p><p>It is also worth mentioning that "old school" has at least a few different connotations, one of them being free-form/ad hoc style DMing, another being the early TSR style adventure (think Tomb of Horrors, White Plume Mountain, etc). Obviously one can embrace the second mentioned aspect with any rules system. But I think this has more to do with the "fluff" of a game than the "crunch."</p><p></p><p>I'm currently running a 4E game. One of the things I don't like about the 4E system is the supposed requirement of miniature use. I don't mind, and often enjoy, using miniatures but I just don't like using them for every single encounter and find that they can take away from imagination if overly used. I have started to run minor encounters--ones that require very little tactical maneuvering--without miniatures and so far so good. But it does require a lot of DM discretion and player trust; seeing that all of the players are in their 30s+ and have mainly played back in the 80s and are used to this style of play, this isn't a problem. I've always played D&D with the understanding that the DM is not the opponent but the facilitator, the storyteller, and the referee. So there is a certain degree of trust that must exist for a successful game to occur, especially if the DM takes an on-the-fly approach.</p><p></p><p>There may be another aspect at play which the OP touched upon, which is the maturation of the D&D community and how that relates to what sort of game style we want to play. The "sense of entitlement" style of play where the players lawyer the rules and view the DM as an opponent may not appeal to folks in their 30s+. I personally have never found that approach appealing but I certainly have played with people who do. I would say that this creates an obstacle for what we are talking about in terms of "free play" and further points to my contention that a large degree of trust in the DM must exist for a non DM-vs-players game to occur.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mercurius, post: 4740700, member: 59082"] To be clear, when I wrote "that's what its all about" I wasn't specifically talking about the old school renaissance but roleplaying itself. And of course I know that statement isn't, technically, true in an absolute sense but expressing a sentiment about the importance of imagination to the RPG experience and how it differs from, say, computer games--and specifically the (or a major) reason why RPGers play RPGs and not computer games. The biggest difference between the two is the use of imagination. Yes, agreed. Yes, and I understand and agree with this as a general trend. Yet what I'm trying to point out is that the old school vibe does not require a return to OD&D or one of its clones--or any rules lite system or specific system at all. I mean, AD&D is often equated with the old school vibe and I wouldn't call it rules lite (rather, rules clunky ;)). But to say that the old school vibe requires a return to rules lite would be misleading, in my opinion. To put it another way, the two--rules complexity and old school free play--are not dependent upon each other; yes, they do influence each other, but one doesn't require, necessitate or cause the other. However it could be argued, I think, that a "rules medium" or less may be needed for the free form aspect of old school; or at least "rules flexibility" or "rules non-attachment." It is also worth mentioning that "old school" has at least a few different connotations, one of them being free-form/ad hoc style DMing, another being the early TSR style adventure (think Tomb of Horrors, White Plume Mountain, etc). Obviously one can embrace the second mentioned aspect with any rules system. But I think this has more to do with the "fluff" of a game than the "crunch." I'm currently running a 4E game. One of the things I don't like about the 4E system is the supposed requirement of miniature use. I don't mind, and often enjoy, using miniatures but I just don't like using them for every single encounter and find that they can take away from imagination if overly used. I have started to run minor encounters--ones that require very little tactical maneuvering--without miniatures and so far so good. But it does require a lot of DM discretion and player trust; seeing that all of the players are in their 30s+ and have mainly played back in the 80s and are used to this style of play, this isn't a problem. I've always played D&D with the understanding that the DM is not the opponent but the facilitator, the storyteller, and the referee. So there is a certain degree of trust that must exist for a successful game to occur, especially if the DM takes an on-the-fly approach. There may be another aspect at play which the OP touched upon, which is the maturation of the D&D community and how that relates to what sort of game style we want to play. The "sense of entitlement" style of play where the players lawyer the rules and view the DM as an opponent may not appeal to folks in their 30s+. I personally have never found that approach appealing but I certainly have played with people who do. I would say that this creates an obstacle for what we are talking about in terms of "free play" and further points to my contention that a large degree of trust in the DM must exist for a non DM-vs-players game to occur. [/QUOTE]
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Is a more OD&D feel game the natural evolutionary endpoint? Is OD&D actually AD&D?
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