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Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Is it fair to cast save-or-suck spells on the players?
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<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 7148793" data-attributes="member: 20323"><p>Emphatically NO, I don't agree with your complaining player.</p><p></p><p>I'm a pretty pro-player "let's have a good time" non-antagonistic kind of DM, but going up against the Githyanki Lich-Queen at 19th level? If you player is getting surprised by the powerful spells she's throwing down, then your player hasn't been paying attention.</p><p></p><p>A few specific thoughts...</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><em>Maze</em> really *should* rely on Intelligence saving throws. I consider the requirement for a check to be a mistake, and house-rule it to be saving throws. However, for a character not proficient in Intelligence saves and/or without a saving throw boosting magic item? Same difference. Personally, when I run maze effects, I like to prepare "side quests" involving the PC's exploration of the maze...this is a real art because you want it to have some depth to make it more interesting than "roll a save", but you also don't want to eat up a lot of table time devoted to one player.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5 rounds stunned due to <em>Power Word: Stun</em>? That is, what, 5 failed saving throws? That's crazy bad luck. Why didn't anyone in the party lend the poor Rogue a hand with his saves?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">When any kind of banishment is possible against the PCs (or any other severe party-splitting measure), it's good to have some kind of plan in place. An easy plan is to have a familiar/animal companion/henchman the player can temporarily take over & some action the PCs can take to either (a) bring their banished friend back into the fight, or (b) bring the fight to their banished friend.</li> </ul><p></p><p>If I was in your shoes, looking over Vlaakith's spell list before the game, I'd immediately think to myself: "Hey, she has lots of stun-locking / banishing spells." Whenever I see that in a game, I generally add a layer of my own design on top of it to make those scenarios more interesting than just rolling dice... For example, maybe a PC in the maze finds an old portrait that reveals clues about a weakness Vlaakith has. Or a banished PC arrives at the ramparts of their home city only to find a flight of red dragon mounted githyanki knights attacking...and the warlock at their head just happens to have some kind of planeshifting staff. Or a PC hit by <em>power word: stun</em> faces a sort of "hero's flashback Hollywood moment" where dead NPCs/allies visit the PC offering cryptic riddles or some kind of an ethical dilemma which, if answered correctly, restore the PC to the present moment (ending the stunned condition). That sort of thing. Really REALLY helps make those sorts of spells not be fun-killers.</p><p></p><p>EDIT: An example from my Dragon Mountain 4e game -- in the final showdown, the red dragon Infyrana could open up gates to the "Kobold Proving Grounds" which was basically a special elaborate trap composed of 9 traps the PCs had previously encountered exploring Dragon Mountain. I played it loose and fast, so the 2 PCs who entered it could surmount each obstacle simply by recalling what they'd learned of the dungeon (e.g. don't just jump an obvious pit because there's a hidden pit trap just beyond it). It made the ~2 rounds the PCs were trapped in the "maze" much more thrilling and didn't take up too much time.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 7148793, member: 20323"] Emphatically NO, I don't agree with your complaining player. I'm a pretty pro-player "let's have a good time" non-antagonistic kind of DM, but going up against the Githyanki Lich-Queen at 19th level? If you player is getting surprised by the powerful spells she's throwing down, then your player hasn't been paying attention. A few specific thoughts... [list][*][I]Maze[/I] really *should* rely on Intelligence saving throws. I consider the requirement for a check to be a mistake, and house-rule it to be saving throws. However, for a character not proficient in Intelligence saves and/or without a saving throw boosting magic item? Same difference. Personally, when I run maze effects, I like to prepare "side quests" involving the PC's exploration of the maze...this is a real art because you want it to have some depth to make it more interesting than "roll a save", but you also don't want to eat up a lot of table time devoted to one player. [*]5 rounds stunned due to [I]Power Word: Stun[/I]? That is, what, 5 failed saving throws? That's crazy bad luck. Why didn't anyone in the party lend the poor Rogue a hand with his saves? [*]When any kind of banishment is possible against the PCs (or any other severe party-splitting measure), it's good to have some kind of plan in place. An easy plan is to have a familiar/animal companion/henchman the player can temporarily take over & some action the PCs can take to either (a) bring their banished friend back into the fight, or (b) bring the fight to their banished friend.[/list] If I was in your shoes, looking over Vlaakith's spell list before the game, I'd immediately think to myself: "Hey, she has lots of stun-locking / banishing spells." Whenever I see that in a game, I generally add a layer of my own design on top of it to make those scenarios more interesting than just rolling dice... For example, maybe a PC in the maze finds an old portrait that reveals clues about a weakness Vlaakith has. Or a banished PC arrives at the ramparts of their home city only to find a flight of red dragon mounted githyanki knights attacking...and the warlock at their head just happens to have some kind of planeshifting staff. Or a PC hit by [I]power word: stun[/I] faces a sort of "hero's flashback Hollywood moment" where dead NPCs/allies visit the PC offering cryptic riddles or some kind of an ethical dilemma which, if answered correctly, restore the PC to the present moment (ending the stunned condition). That sort of thing. Really REALLY helps make those sorts of spells not be fun-killers. EDIT: An example from my Dragon Mountain 4e game -- in the final showdown, the red dragon Infyrana could open up gates to the "Kobold Proving Grounds" which was basically a special elaborate trap composed of 9 traps the PCs had previously encountered exploring Dragon Mountain. I played it loose and fast, so the 2 PCs who entered it could surmount each obstacle simply by recalling what they'd learned of the dungeon (e.g. don't just jump an obvious pit because there's a hidden pit trap just beyond it). It made the ~2 rounds the PCs were trapped in the "maze" much more thrilling and didn't take up too much time. [/QUOTE]
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Is it fair to cast save-or-suck spells on the players?
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