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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Is Paragon Tier the "sweet spot" of 4E? And other ruminations on the tiers
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<blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5591443" data-attributes="member: 78116"><p>Epic tier suffers for several reasons, but none are mechanical in nature anymore - though in saying this you don't want to start in epic tier off the bat or really suffer the consequences (as it is mechanically overwhelming if you don't build up to it). </p><p></p><p>There are two primary problems with epic tier, both of them are problems that Wizards could and should readily solve.</p><p></p><p>1) Not enough epic monsters. I've ranted about this before, but Wizards seem to have entirely abandoned the concept of supporting epic tier monsters (Monster Vault had 13 and Threats to the Nentir vale has an <em>astounding</em> zero monsters). Most importantly, we need monsters that <em>aren't</em> elementals and particularly that aren't demons. There are plenty of demons and plenty of <em>very well designed</em> demons. What we need are more monsters designed to fit into epic tier from the beginning, which cover different groups like fey, aberrations (they are oddly underrepresented), expanding devils/angels (though there are a good start on these compared to fey), magical beasts and such forth. </p><p></p><p>Ancient dragons would be nice as well.</p><p></p><p>2) Not enough epic adventures. This is the killer: There is nothing to go on except the handful of epic scales of war and H1-H3 adventures. Unfortunately both predate MM3 and so have numerous gaping mechanical design flaws. They also reflect where wizards didn't really seem to "get" epic tier at all. Essentially they are gigantic linear dungeon crawls, without the set up and dramatic stakes that epic tier SHOULD have - except for a few battles (Namely the capstone encounters of both campaigns).</p><p></p><p>There are other problems, but those two are the most insurmountable. Having run a lot of epic tier, I can tell you that work goes up exponentially from paragon to epic. You need to make most of your own monsters, traps and there is stuff all for adventures to choose from. I mean if Wizards wonder why everyone doesn't play epic tier, it's their own lack of support that entirely kills it.</p><p></p><p>Personally I would fix it in this order:</p><p></p><p>1) A DMG3 that covers the epic tier. How to write world threatening plots into the default world - don't force a DM to disconnect epic tier from the actual campaign world.</p><p></p><p>2) Actually SUPPORT epic tier. Monsters is the easiest and most effective way to do this.</p><p></p><p>3) Release adventures that actually take advantage of the strengths available in epic tier.</p><p></p><p>IMO there is no "Sweet spot" in 4E because all three tiers work fine - especially now damage was increased (paragon and epic were equally as bad to run when monsters damage was between cat scratch and slight laceration in terms of effect). The difference is the amount of work you need to put into epic is disproportionally higher to heroic and paragon.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Aegeri, post: 5591443, member: 78116"] Epic tier suffers for several reasons, but none are mechanical in nature anymore - though in saying this you don't want to start in epic tier off the bat or really suffer the consequences (as it is mechanically overwhelming if you don't build up to it). There are two primary problems with epic tier, both of them are problems that Wizards could and should readily solve. 1) Not enough epic monsters. I've ranted about this before, but Wizards seem to have entirely abandoned the concept of supporting epic tier monsters (Monster Vault had 13 and Threats to the Nentir vale has an [I]astounding[/I] zero monsters). Most importantly, we need monsters that [I]aren't[/I] elementals and particularly that aren't demons. There are plenty of demons and plenty of [I]very well designed[/I] demons. What we need are more monsters designed to fit into epic tier from the beginning, which cover different groups like fey, aberrations (they are oddly underrepresented), expanding devils/angels (though there are a good start on these compared to fey), magical beasts and such forth. Ancient dragons would be nice as well. 2) Not enough epic adventures. This is the killer: There is nothing to go on except the handful of epic scales of war and H1-H3 adventures. Unfortunately both predate MM3 and so have numerous gaping mechanical design flaws. They also reflect where wizards didn't really seem to "get" epic tier at all. Essentially they are gigantic linear dungeon crawls, without the set up and dramatic stakes that epic tier SHOULD have - except for a few battles (Namely the capstone encounters of both campaigns). There are other problems, but those two are the most insurmountable. Having run a lot of epic tier, I can tell you that work goes up exponentially from paragon to epic. You need to make most of your own monsters, traps and there is stuff all for adventures to choose from. I mean if Wizards wonder why everyone doesn't play epic tier, it's their own lack of support that entirely kills it. Personally I would fix it in this order: 1) A DMG3 that covers the epic tier. How to write world threatening plots into the default world - don't force a DM to disconnect epic tier from the actual campaign world. 2) Actually SUPPORT epic tier. Monsters is the easiest and most effective way to do this. 3) Release adventures that actually take advantage of the strengths available in epic tier. IMO there is no "Sweet spot" in 4E because all three tiers work fine - especially now damage was increased (paragon and epic were equally as bad to run when monsters damage was between cat scratch and slight laceration in terms of effect). The difference is the amount of work you need to put into epic is disproportionally higher to heroic and paragon. [/QUOTE]
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