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Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?
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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7823764" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>Talk about thread drift...</p><p></p><p>To help the thread go back to the topic I'm interested in discussing (which is "why would Paizo ever want to make a game that in any way shape or form resembles the least successful edition of D&D???") here's the OP again <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>PF2 is indeed a complete new game, and yes I can see how it will annoy both Pathfinder holdouts and 5E gamers curious to see if Paizo offers more.</p><p></p><p>The real head-scratcher is that it doesn't do everything in its power to stay away from 4E comparisons.</p><p></p><p>On the contrary - here are three areas we can identify resemblances:</p><p><strong>1) layout and presentation</strong></p><p>PF2 reads bone dry. It features walls of feats. (It actually sets an astonishingly high bar for basic understanding so I can definitely see quite a lot of newbies being scared off)</p><p></p><p>Why didn't Paizo understand that a class description should be self-contained, that is, everything about your Rogue or Barbarian should be explained right in the Class chapter? (With the exception of spells, I guess)</p><p></p><p><strong>2) choice - impact or illusion</strong></p><p>This is one of the biggest bugbears of 4E, and it unfortunately seems PF2 comes from the same design school.</p><p></p><p>Yes, you get a lot of choice as you build your character and as you level it up.</p><p></p><p>But most choices lack impact; they merely allow you to reach nominal levels of bonuses (like +4 for ability, +2 for trained, +1 for level giving +7 at first level. You can very well have worse bonuses, and use feats to "unlock" that +7 potential. But you cannot transcend the "invisible box": the best score of any character at any level is tightly reined in.)</p><p></p><p>Core fundamentals can't be changed at all: like your weapon, armor and save proficiencies. </p><p></p><p>There's no 3E/5E style multiclassing at all.</p><p></p><p>It seems you're asked to make a heck of a lot of choices that ultimately don't matter much at all, when it comes to making your character tread new ground, go in new directions.</p><p></p><p><strong>3) magic items</strong></p><p>Unfortunately I see a clear resemblance between 4E and PF2 magic items, in stark contrast to how items in both 3E and 5E are fun, atmospheric; items with real power.</p><p></p><p>In 4E I often found that even when I combined two items into one (giving it both powers) they regularly got ignored by the players, who was up to their ears trying to control all the little bonuses and effects.</p><p></p><p>A PF2 item can be a Bronze Bull Pendant that gives a measly +2 bonus to a single Shove action once. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite13" alt=":cautious:" title="Cautious :cautious:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":cautious:" /></p><p>Not only that it can be used only once and is then consumed, the devs have the gall to</p><p>1) require you to prepare it well in advance (you must "affix" it to your armor)</p><p>2) put requirements on it (it doesn't work if you're not trained in Athletics)</p><p>3) its price in gold pieces is actually significant</p><p></p><p>So there you have it. A Talisman you must write down what it does, and then remember to affix (you can only have one Talisman affixed to your armor at any given time), and then remember to actually use. For what? A +10% chance of succeeding at one (1) Shove action, that moves an enemy back five feet(!) <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite9" alt=":eek:" title="Eek! :eek:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":eek:" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7823764, member: 12731"] Talk about thread drift... To help the thread go back to the topic I'm interested in discussing (which is "why would Paizo ever want to make a game that in any way shape or form resembles the least successful edition of D&D???") here's the OP again :) PF2 is indeed a complete new game, and yes I can see how it will annoy both Pathfinder holdouts and 5E gamers curious to see if Paizo offers more. The real head-scratcher is that it doesn't do everything in its power to stay away from 4E comparisons. On the contrary - here are three areas we can identify resemblances: [B]1) layout and presentation[/B] PF2 reads bone dry. It features walls of feats. (It actually sets an astonishingly high bar for basic understanding so I can definitely see quite a lot of newbies being scared off) Why didn't Paizo understand that a class description should be self-contained, that is, everything about your Rogue or Barbarian should be explained right in the Class chapter? (With the exception of spells, I guess) [B]2) choice - impact or illusion[/B] This is one of the biggest bugbears of 4E, and it unfortunately seems PF2 comes from the same design school. Yes, you get a lot of choice as you build your character and as you level it up. But most choices lack impact; they merely allow you to reach nominal levels of bonuses (like +4 for ability, +2 for trained, +1 for level giving +7 at first level. You can very well have worse bonuses, and use feats to "unlock" that +7 potential. But you cannot transcend the "invisible box": the best score of any character at any level is tightly reined in.) Core fundamentals can't be changed at all: like your weapon, armor and save proficiencies. There's no 3E/5E style multiclassing at all. It seems you're asked to make a heck of a lot of choices that ultimately don't matter much at all, when it comes to making your character tread new ground, go in new directions. [B]3) magic items[/B] Unfortunately I see a clear resemblance between 4E and PF2 magic items, in stark contrast to how items in both 3E and 5E are fun, atmospheric; items with real power. In 4E I often found that even when I combined two items into one (giving it both powers) they regularly got ignored by the players, who was up to their ears trying to control all the little bonuses and effects. A PF2 item can be a Bronze Bull Pendant that gives a measly +2 bonus to a single Shove action once. :cautious: Not only that it can be used only once and is then consumed, the devs have the gall to 1) require you to prepare it well in advance (you must "affix" it to your armor) 2) put requirements on it (it doesn't work if you're not trained in Athletics) 3) its price in gold pieces is actually significant So there you have it. A Talisman you must write down what it does, and then remember to affix (you can only have one Talisman affixed to your armor at any given time), and then remember to actually use. For what? A +10% chance of succeeding at one (1) Shove action, that moves an enemy back five feet(!) :eek: [/QUOTE]
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