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Is Xanathars The New UA? AKA A Munchkins Book
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<blockquote data-quote="Treantmonklvl20" data-source="post: 7475969" data-attributes="member: 55582"><p>Exactly, though I would not use the words "go unused", I would use the words, "are unavailable", unused suggests it was somehow optional.</p><p></p><p></p><p>We do agree, I never suggested it was superior to Healing Spirit. In fact, I've brought that up several times. My point was that it was comparable as a "keep the party alive" tool.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think we are in agreement here.</p><p></p><p>Ever had to run away from battle because you were so beaten up you thought you might be facing a TPK? </p><p></p><p>Ever been chased by an enemy when you need a short rest?</p><p></p><p>How about a short rest in the middle of battle? Ever wish you could do that?</p><p></p><p>How about a rest somewhere with regular patrols? Or even worse, patrols you don't know the schedule of?</p><p></p><p>Those are off the top of my head. I'm sure I could come up with more. I suspect you could have come up with those and more if you had thought about it too.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In my first response to you I said: </p><p>"Upsides:</p><p>Healing Spirit:</p><p>- takes only one minute to receive full healing benefit, can recieve partial benefit in less time"</p><p></p><p></p><p>No, that's not what I said.</p><p></p><p>What I am saying is that it's NOT an extreme degree of power creep. Using Prayer of Healing as a point of comparison is not a good comparison as what would be a power-creep for second level spell use.</p><p></p><p>Here's what Healing Spirit actually does: it keeps a party alive.</p><p></p><p>Here's some other 2nd level spell options for Druids: Pass without Trace, Heat Metal, Hold Person, Find Traps.</p><p></p><p>All of those spells help keep a party alive (in various ways).</p><p></p><p>Can we objectively state that Healing Spirit is objectively an "extreme power creep" to the power of these spells? That's the question. If not, then it's not a problem.</p><p></p><p></p><p>You're exaggerating again. It's an order of magnitude beyond <em>one</em> alternative. Just as other existing spells are orders of magnitude above that same alternative. It's a bad alternative. It's not a failing of Healing Spirit that Prayer of Healing is a bad spell, and not worth a 2nd level slot.</p><p></p><p>You also use the term "healing economy", as if healing is an island. Can we compare healing spells to abilities that heal? How about spells or abilities that prevent damage? Aren't these all intertwined? If so, then "healing economy" is an irrelevant term.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Cure wounds x spell level is the "baseline" for combat recovery? I'm...going to let that go.... </p><p></p><p> However, let's expand this:</p><p></p><p><strong>Characters are more than HP. They are a mix of HP, Spells, Combat Superiority dice, Ki points, Inspiration points, Sorcery points, Action surges, Second Winds, Pact spells, wands, potions, etc.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p>When the designers tell us in the DMG that an X level party should be expected to Y number of Z rated challenges per long rest, they know, expect, and in fact count on characters working through all those resources.</p><p></p><p>recovery of HP accounts for only one of those resources. <strong>We shouldn't be talking about "healing economy" at all, we should be talking about "recovery economy". In fact, that's not even accurate, as there are so many ways to prevent the need for recovery</strong>:</p><p></p><p>For example, we haven't talked about the many ways to grant Temporary HP. Isn't that just superior to Healing? I mean, a spellcaster with temps can be damaged and doesn't have to make a concentration check.</p><p></p><p>We also haven't talked about the various ways to increase max HP. Isn't that also superior to healing? Higher Max HP means more damage before you go down, it also means more damage to kill you with massive damage. It also stacks with Temps.</p><p></p><p>We also haven't talked about the various ways to prevent damage. I've argued for years, and across editions that this is superior to any healing. Honestly, battlefield control spells have prevented more damage than healing spells have ever recovered. Oh, and bonuses to AC. Resistances. Oh, and the most obvious of all, that a dead opponent does no damage. Nor does a held one, or an incapacitated one. Frightened ones can still do damage, but they do much less.</p><p></p><p>Maybe we shouldn't be talking about "Healing economy" or "recovery economy" at all, because it ignores the fact that combat in D&D is filled with nuance, and its not a case of take damage-heal damage-take damage-heal damage. Instead it's about preparation, defense, prevention, controlling battlefields, debuffing enemies, buffing allies, positioning, and then maybe some healing. </p><p></p><p>Perhaps what we should be talking about is "Prevention and recovery economy". If we do that, then <em>Healing Spirit is nothing special.</em> It's the best out of combat healing option yes, but nowhere near the best way to keep party members alive, which is honestly its <em>only</em> purpose. Prayer of Healing and Healing Spirit do not belong to some special "healing" club. Every spell, ability or item that keeps a party alive is part of that club.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Treantmonklvl20, post: 7475969, member: 55582"] Exactly, though I would not use the words "go unused", I would use the words, "are unavailable", unused suggests it was somehow optional. We do agree, I never suggested it was superior to Healing Spirit. In fact, I've brought that up several times. My point was that it was comparable as a "keep the party alive" tool. I don't think we are in agreement here. Ever had to run away from battle because you were so beaten up you thought you might be facing a TPK? Ever been chased by an enemy when you need a short rest? How about a short rest in the middle of battle? Ever wish you could do that? How about a rest somewhere with regular patrols? Or even worse, patrols you don't know the schedule of? Those are off the top of my head. I'm sure I could come up with more. I suspect you could have come up with those and more if you had thought about it too. In my first response to you I said: "Upsides: Healing Spirit: - takes only one minute to receive full healing benefit, can recieve partial benefit in less time" No, that's not what I said. What I am saying is that it's NOT an extreme degree of power creep. Using Prayer of Healing as a point of comparison is not a good comparison as what would be a power-creep for second level spell use. Here's what Healing Spirit actually does: it keeps a party alive. Here's some other 2nd level spell options for Druids: Pass without Trace, Heat Metal, Hold Person, Find Traps. All of those spells help keep a party alive (in various ways). Can we objectively state that Healing Spirit is objectively an "extreme power creep" to the power of these spells? That's the question. If not, then it's not a problem. You're exaggerating again. It's an order of magnitude beyond [I]one[/I] alternative. Just as other existing spells are orders of magnitude above that same alternative. It's a bad alternative. It's not a failing of Healing Spirit that Prayer of Healing is a bad spell, and not worth a 2nd level slot. You also use the term "healing economy", as if healing is an island. Can we compare healing spells to abilities that heal? How about spells or abilities that prevent damage? Aren't these all intertwined? If so, then "healing economy" is an irrelevant term. Cure wounds x spell level is the "baseline" for combat recovery? I'm...going to let that go.... However, let's expand this: [B]Characters are more than HP. They are a mix of HP, Spells, Combat Superiority dice, Ki points, Inspiration points, Sorcery points, Action surges, Second Winds, Pact spells, wands, potions, etc. [/B] When the designers tell us in the DMG that an X level party should be expected to Y number of Z rated challenges per long rest, they know, expect, and in fact count on characters working through all those resources. recovery of HP accounts for only one of those resources. [B]We shouldn't be talking about "healing economy" at all, we should be talking about "recovery economy". In fact, that's not even accurate, as there are so many ways to prevent the need for recovery[/B]: For example, we haven't talked about the many ways to grant Temporary HP. Isn't that just superior to Healing? I mean, a spellcaster with temps can be damaged and doesn't have to make a concentration check. We also haven't talked about the various ways to increase max HP. Isn't that also superior to healing? Higher Max HP means more damage before you go down, it also means more damage to kill you with massive damage. It also stacks with Temps. We also haven't talked about the various ways to prevent damage. I've argued for years, and across editions that this is superior to any healing. Honestly, battlefield control spells have prevented more damage than healing spells have ever recovered. Oh, and bonuses to AC. Resistances. Oh, and the most obvious of all, that a dead opponent does no damage. Nor does a held one, or an incapacitated one. Frightened ones can still do damage, but they do much less. Maybe we shouldn't be talking about "Healing economy" or "recovery economy" at all, because it ignores the fact that combat in D&D is filled with nuance, and its not a case of take damage-heal damage-take damage-heal damage. Instead it's about preparation, defense, prevention, controlling battlefields, debuffing enemies, buffing allies, positioning, and then maybe some healing. Perhaps what we should be talking about is "Prevention and recovery economy". If we do that, then [I]Healing Spirit is nothing special.[/I] It's the best out of combat healing option yes, but nowhere near the best way to keep party members alive, which is honestly its [I]only[/I] purpose. Prayer of Healing and Healing Spirit do not belong to some special "healing" club. Every spell, ability or item that keeps a party alive is part of that club. [/QUOTE]
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