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I've introduced my 5th ed group to AD&D 2E
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<blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 8706108" data-attributes="member: 6877472"><p>If 2e suffers from anything, it's that what it is, and what people wanted it to be, were never in sync. I know a lot of people who wanted D&D to be a game where they could make any character concept they want and have fun with it. The reality is, though, there are things that work in 2e. And things that work well in 2e. And a lot of things that just...don't.</p><p></p><p>The Thief is one of those things. Many people believed that being a Thief would make you the lightly armored, artful dodger, cunning rogue. The outlaw, the bad boy. The guy who fights with his wits, not his brawn. You're Raffles or Lupin, Maverick or Han Solo.</p><p></p><p>The reality is, however, you're not any of these things, or at least, if you are, it's likely not because of your class, but in spite of it. You're almost bottom of the barrel when it comes to weapons and armor. Almost bottom of the barrel when it comes to survivability. Your contribution to combat are slightly better than that of a Wizard without spells, and your primary ability, to facilitate exploration challenges, is unreliable for a few levels. Race and Kits help, but a very high Dexterity score matters more for your abilities than anything else. If you decide to play a Thief with a 15 or even a 16 Dexterity, you're in for a rough time.</p><p></p><p>Backstab is very conservatively designed, to the point it can be nearly impossible to use unless the DM gives tacit permission. Your abilities should be superior versions of what anyone could do, but they are not treated as such- often, the rules imply no one can attempt things you have abilities for. Despite being somewhat nonsensical (like, seriously, no one else can actively listen in a dungeon?). The ever expanding Non-Weapon Proficiency list actually steps on the toes of the Thief at times- ironic, since you'd think the Thief is <strong>the </strong>skilled hero, so NWP's should bolster, not detract from your talents. But the sad truth is, you get less NWP's than anyone. Oh sure, you level faster, and so you might not notice it in most campaigns, but you get a new NWP every 4 levels, and everyone else, even Clerics, who are the next fastest class to level, get them every 3.</p><p></p><p>If you're an old hand, and you understand which ability scores to prioritize, which races give the best features, which weapons have the most utility and are likely the ones most easily acquired, which NWP's are going to see a lot of play (and which ones are a waste of slots), and you understand your role, the game works perfectly fine.</p><p></p><p>But if you want to play a human warrior with a greatsword who disdains armor, a cunning Halfling swashbuckler who runs into the fray with a rapier in hand, or a Half-Elven Fighter/Cleric/Magic-User who is convinced he's a Red Mage from Final Fantasy, you may be in for some rude awakenings.</p><p></p><p>It took me a long time to realize that, every time I was making house rules for 2e, I was fighting against the system itself. That my problems weren't that some options didn't work right, but that some concepts ran against the grain of what the game was designed for. A lot of people decry "optimizers" as the enemies of roleplaying and fun, but the fact that the system itself punishes you for "doing it wrong" and only the DM can change that fact, is where it all starts.</p><p></p><p>You played a happy go lucky Thief with a Charisma of 17, and died to a trap or a random arrow and wonder "what went wrong?". Maybe you ask a friend. Next thing you know, you're a Wood Elf Fighter, specialized in long swords, with ambidexterity and specialization in two-weapon fighting style, making 5/2 attacks per round with a Thac0 of 15 and dealing d8+9 damage at 1st level!</p><p></p><p>Well now you're effective...but at what cost?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="James Gasik, post: 8706108, member: 6877472"] If 2e suffers from anything, it's that what it is, and what people wanted it to be, were never in sync. I know a lot of people who wanted D&D to be a game where they could make any character concept they want and have fun with it. The reality is, though, there are things that work in 2e. And things that work well in 2e. And a lot of things that just...don't. The Thief is one of those things. Many people believed that being a Thief would make you the lightly armored, artful dodger, cunning rogue. The outlaw, the bad boy. The guy who fights with his wits, not his brawn. You're Raffles or Lupin, Maverick or Han Solo. The reality is, however, you're not any of these things, or at least, if you are, it's likely not because of your class, but in spite of it. You're almost bottom of the barrel when it comes to weapons and armor. Almost bottom of the barrel when it comes to survivability. Your contribution to combat are slightly better than that of a Wizard without spells, and your primary ability, to facilitate exploration challenges, is unreliable for a few levels. Race and Kits help, but a very high Dexterity score matters more for your abilities than anything else. If you decide to play a Thief with a 15 or even a 16 Dexterity, you're in for a rough time. Backstab is very conservatively designed, to the point it can be nearly impossible to use unless the DM gives tacit permission. Your abilities should be superior versions of what anyone could do, but they are not treated as such- often, the rules imply no one can attempt things you have abilities for. Despite being somewhat nonsensical (like, seriously, no one else can actively listen in a dungeon?). The ever expanding Non-Weapon Proficiency list actually steps on the toes of the Thief at times- ironic, since you'd think the Thief is [B]the [/B]skilled hero, so NWP's should bolster, not detract from your talents. But the sad truth is, you get less NWP's than anyone. Oh sure, you level faster, and so you might not notice it in most campaigns, but you get a new NWP every 4 levels, and everyone else, even Clerics, who are the next fastest class to level, get them every 3. If you're an old hand, and you understand which ability scores to prioritize, which races give the best features, which weapons have the most utility and are likely the ones most easily acquired, which NWP's are going to see a lot of play (and which ones are a waste of slots), and you understand your role, the game works perfectly fine. But if you want to play a human warrior with a greatsword who disdains armor, a cunning Halfling swashbuckler who runs into the fray with a rapier in hand, or a Half-Elven Fighter/Cleric/Magic-User who is convinced he's a Red Mage from Final Fantasy, you may be in for some rude awakenings. It took me a long time to realize that, every time I was making house rules for 2e, I was fighting against the system itself. That my problems weren't that some options didn't work right, but that some concepts ran against the grain of what the game was designed for. A lot of people decry "optimizers" as the enemies of roleplaying and fun, but the fact that the system itself punishes you for "doing it wrong" and only the DM can change that fact, is where it all starts. You played a happy go lucky Thief with a Charisma of 17, and died to a trap or a random arrow and wonder "what went wrong?". Maybe you ask a friend. Next thing you know, you're a Wood Elf Fighter, specialized in long swords, with ambidexterity and specialization in two-weapon fighting style, making 5/2 attacks per round with a Thac0 of 15 and dealing d8+9 damage at 1st level! Well now you're effective...but at what cost? [/QUOTE]
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