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Judgement calls vs "railroading"
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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7054222" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>From this and other things you've posted here it seems your games are a good way down the spectrum towards co-operative storytelling. I'm coming at this from a long history of quasi-Gygaxian dungeoneering where a plot or world backstory sticks its head up now and then, takes one look at the party, and likely runs screaming back into its cave. So, small wonder we're talking in circles.</p><p></p><p>If you hadn't decided ahead of time whether there's a diamond there to be found or not, my statement that I'm looking for one and subsequent success on the roll to find it means *pop* I've just generated a diamond. Do this often enough and hey, who needs to adventure? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>It's significant to my character's wealth, if nothing else.</p><p></p><p>They can be whatever they like; but it seems you're trying to take an overall foundational basis of those systems (i.e. a strong lean toward co-operative storytelling) and shoehorn it into D&D, which traditionally has had a more DM-driven style.</p><p>Plot, backstory, and game-world history are really all the same thing, with the only differences being time (whether current or past) and level of effect on or interaction with the PCs.</p><p></p><p>The end-result story of the game may or may not have much to do with any of these.</p><p></p><p>==========================================</p><p>Though I think we kind of need one for these purposes. Just within my current campaign we have or have had:</p><p>[sblock]- a party going back in time to stop Ares from doing something that would have made a mess of history (6-adventure arc)</p><p>- an ongoing slow quiet takeover of (eventually) the world by Elves, unknowingly (in most cases) backed by Mind Flayers who have captured and corrupted one of the Elvish gods (at least 10 adventures so far with more to come; I can mine this plot until the cows come home)</p><p>- a party breaking up a slavers ring (5-adventure arc based on 1e's A-series); and this led directly to and kind of tied in with:</p><p>- operations against and eventual slaying of the undead emperor of a nearby realm, and dealing with the civil war that followed (5 adventures so far, still ongoing).</p><p>- a small adventure path to deal with something corrupting Poseidon (4 adventures) [by sheer coincidence this tied in perfectly with the Elvish stuff, after the fact]</p><p>- a series of adventures culminating in the destruction of an awakening Hobgoblin deity (5 or 7 adventures, depending how one counts)</p><p>- one small adventure that waved in passing at what will (I hope) become a major story arc later, to do with stuff I won't get into here in case any of my players wander by</p><p>- another small adventure that brushed against a long (as yet unplayed) adventure path that might someday become an entire new campaign</p><p>- and a bunch of side treks, let's-go-bash-some-giants trips, diversions, and so forth.</p><p></p><p>There's been a bunch of interweaving parties doing all this, it's most certainly not been the same people playing the same characters week after week for 9 years, but eventually different people from different groups meet and share stories, and thus the overall knowledge base slowly grows.</p><p></p><p>And these are just the plots the players/characters have either chosen or been recruited to engage with. There's been others they've turned their noses up at and still others they've flat-out missed the hints for.</p><p>[/sblock]So, what is this thing you call linear plot?</p><p></p><p>One thing worth noting: to those who say the DM should have everything planned out in advance, some of those plot lines weren't even dreamed of when the campaign started. The advantage of a long campaign, I guess: lots of time to think of new ideas. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p>I guess I'm not much different, in that I've been both playing and DMing for 30+ years in the same 1e-based system, with one long side trip into playing 3e. I'd like to think I'm a better DM now than in, say, 1989...but my primary motivation remains the same: I try to run the sort of game that I'd enjoy playing in; and I'll know I'm doing it wrong if people stop coming out to play. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Lan-"did this thread have a predetermined plot or are we making it up as we go along?"-efan</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 7054222, member: 29398"] From this and other things you've posted here it seems your games are a good way down the spectrum towards co-operative storytelling. I'm coming at this from a long history of quasi-Gygaxian dungeoneering where a plot or world backstory sticks its head up now and then, takes one look at the party, and likely runs screaming back into its cave. So, small wonder we're talking in circles. If you hadn't decided ahead of time whether there's a diamond there to be found or not, my statement that I'm looking for one and subsequent success on the roll to find it means *pop* I've just generated a diamond. Do this often enough and hey, who needs to adventure? :) It's significant to my character's wealth, if nothing else. They can be whatever they like; but it seems you're trying to take an overall foundational basis of those systems (i.e. a strong lean toward co-operative storytelling) and shoehorn it into D&D, which traditionally has had a more DM-driven style. Plot, backstory, and game-world history are really all the same thing, with the only differences being time (whether current or past) and level of effect on or interaction with the PCs. The end-result story of the game may or may not have much to do with any of these. ========================================== Though I think we kind of need one for these purposes. Just within my current campaign we have or have had: [sblock]- a party going back in time to stop Ares from doing something that would have made a mess of history (6-adventure arc) - an ongoing slow quiet takeover of (eventually) the world by Elves, unknowingly (in most cases) backed by Mind Flayers who have captured and corrupted one of the Elvish gods (at least 10 adventures so far with more to come; I can mine this plot until the cows come home) - a party breaking up a slavers ring (5-adventure arc based on 1e's A-series); and this led directly to and kind of tied in with: - operations against and eventual slaying of the undead emperor of a nearby realm, and dealing with the civil war that followed (5 adventures so far, still ongoing). - a small adventure path to deal with something corrupting Poseidon (4 adventures) [by sheer coincidence this tied in perfectly with the Elvish stuff, after the fact] - a series of adventures culminating in the destruction of an awakening Hobgoblin deity (5 or 7 adventures, depending how one counts) - one small adventure that waved in passing at what will (I hope) become a major story arc later, to do with stuff I won't get into here in case any of my players wander by - another small adventure that brushed against a long (as yet unplayed) adventure path that might someday become an entire new campaign - and a bunch of side treks, let's-go-bash-some-giants trips, diversions, and so forth. There's been a bunch of interweaving parties doing all this, it's most certainly not been the same people playing the same characters week after week for 9 years, but eventually different people from different groups meet and share stories, and thus the overall knowledge base slowly grows. And these are just the plots the players/characters have either chosen or been recruited to engage with. There's been others they've turned their noses up at and still others they've flat-out missed the hints for. [/sblock]So, what is this thing you call linear plot? One thing worth noting: to those who say the DM should have everything planned out in advance, some of those plot lines weren't even dreamed of when the campaign started. The advantage of a long campaign, I guess: lots of time to think of new ideas. :) I guess I'm not much different, in that I've been both playing and DMing for 30+ years in the same 1e-based system, with one long side trip into playing 3e. I'd like to think I'm a better DM now than in, say, 1989...but my primary motivation remains the same: I try to run the sort of game that I'd enjoy playing in; and I'll know I'm doing it wrong if people stop coming out to play. :) Lan-"did this thread have a predetermined plot or are we making it up as we go along?"-efan [/QUOTE]
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