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Judgement calls vs "railroading"
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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7059663" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>Lots of work to do again tonight, it seems... <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p>Because the GM can then both frame it properly (provide set-up and clues) and provide internally-consistent reactions to what the PCs' investigations (if any) turn up (if anything). Both of these would be rather difficult if the GM doesn't know the solution: at best she'd be guessing; more likely she'd just be floundering.</p><p></p><p>I don't want to say outright that I don't believe you, but what's the next closest thing?</p><p></p><p>If his evilness was unknown to everyone <em>even including the person who was supposedly playing him</em> (that's you the GM, by the way), then basing his words and actions on said evilness could not have been possible (though random chance could, I guess, achieve a similar result).</p><p></p><p>No. But there's always a chance it might manifest in any of a gajillion different ways - or not at all. That's where the roleplaying would come in. Further, in a game like mine that has alignment detection spells and abilities if he had done or said anything that provoked undue suspicion he might have got pulled right then and there.</p><p></p><p>The consistency issue comes from a number of places, not all tied to the brother example:</p><p></p><p>- cause and effect consistency. If cause A leads to effect B once then logic says it will do so again if repeated, all other things being equal</p><p>- in the brother example (but assuming prior interaction) if he was always evil he'd in theory have been motivated by that all along...which may or may not have given the party pause for thought; but as the evilness didn't exist in the fiction until the last minute the chance for such was lost</p><p>- memory consistency: if Torvallen was 20 miles north of Qar'Nora last time we were here it needs must still be 20 miles north now we've returned (or another one: if the dungeon's ex-armoury with the painted targets on the walls was to the left at the bottom of the spiral stairs last time we visited it should still be there this time - which if it's been three years real time since that place was visited and neither players nor DM mapped the thing is likely to cause headaches unless you've got photographic memories)</p><p></p><p>At the first encounter, yes. But the next encounter needs to have some consistency with or at least reference to the first one. The elf meets the same ogre again 3 months later, the ogre remembers the money the elf gave it and wants some more; it'll approach on that basis and thus trump (or very much skew) the dice.</p><p></p><p>Which butchers any sense of consistency in time. The broad-brush backstory and game-world history is already there...either that, or you're playing in a vacuum...and everything is filtered through that. This is true in the real world also.</p><p></p><p>I'm used to my own note-taking and memory, and those of a whole bunch of players I've DMed over the years. I'm not exaggerating at all. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>As do mine...log and other info for the current one is at <a href="http://www.friendsofgravity.com/games/decast" target="_blank">www.friendsofgravity.com/games/decast</a> </p><p></p><p>You're right, but only until something thought to be irrelevant suddenly takes on new importance (remember my talk of breadcrumbs earlier?) - that guy you met in passing three years ago has just become the key to everything in the players' eyes, while in the DM's eyes he was key all along and thus notes were pre-made. Doing that all from memory wouldn't work...I mean, hell, I can't even remember clearly what happened in what sequence in my session two nights ago (as I realized when I went to type up the log this afternoon! I think I got it mostly right); as I've already said, my in-session note-taking is woefully inadequate as I don't want to have to stop things while I write.</p><p></p><p>It provides the focus of play. It provides a common thread. Events go on as they will, possibly influenced by the run of play and possibly not.</p><p></p><p>An abandoned planned arc is still a planned arc. I played a character whose backstory was that giants had overrun his family's farm when he was a kid. His planned arc from day (and session) 1 was to take his home back, once he got big enough and bad enough through other adventuring. Years and levels later I was able to convince the other characters to go along with this...and they did, for one inconclusive adventure, after which they got bored with giants and went off elsewhere. I retired my guy at that point to carry on the fight as best he could with whatever locals he could round up.</p><p></p><p>With an eye to the plot and-or story and an eye to what makes sense within the game world vis-a-vis backstory and so forth, the answer is quite simple: whenever she bloody well wants.</p><p></p><p>They haven't. However, they think they have, which makes all the difference.</p><p></p><p>Sure, and minor stuff like that - while at all times completely subject to DM veto - is just fine. I do it, as a player, unless the DM tells me no. But I make sure never to insert anything that would give me any undue advantage or status or suchlike.</p><p></p><p>Which is one way of doing it, but I've come to realize is not my preferred way. I want a game world with history, with backstory, and with a life beyond what the PCs see. Why? Because I've also come to realize that this history/backstory/life is the richest mine imaginable for story arcs, adventures, intrugie, mystery, and all-round fun.</p><p></p><p>There's some major - very major - things about my game world that no player or character yet knows...nine years in...that have been every now and then influencing things all along. Reveals will no doubt come at some point(s), but till that time if I didn't have these things already baked in then how could they have had those influences?</p><p></p><p>If my character Terazon does something then in theory I as his player am responsible for it, right? Same goes for the DM when an NPC does something.</p><p></p><p>But if Sauron was a PC and Elendil was another player's PC, instead of being pawns in a single-author fiction, you and loads of others would be jumping all over the Sauron-player for the PvP. This tells me that the character *is* tied to the player...and by extension all the NPCs are thus tied to the DM.</p><p></p><p>So the DM does in this case have secret backstory. Good to know.</p><p></p><p>And, what if the check is never made...or it is and the roll says success?</p><p></p><p>The Baron causes things to happen in the game world - imaginary cause, imaginary result. The next step back shows the real DM is causing the Baron to cause those imaginary things.</p><p></p><p>And, your point about "I was playing in character" in fact makes my own point above, that the character is tied to the player. So, if my character Sauron kills your character Elendil because Sauron in character is bat-spit evil and killing Elendil suits his purposes that's not me-as-player killing you-as-player. That's me-as-player playing my character to kill another character that happens to have a different player attached.</p><p></p><p>Why not? In the case of RPGs it's the causal powers of imaginary people as imagined by a combination of the players and the DM that in the end gives the story (though it's up to one of us real-world types to write it down!).</p><p></p><p>Lan-"a reminder to all that elf is, in fact, the other white meat"-efan</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 7059663, member: 29398"] Lots of work to do again tonight, it seems... :) Because the GM can then both frame it properly (provide set-up and clues) and provide internally-consistent reactions to what the PCs' investigations (if any) turn up (if anything). Both of these would be rather difficult if the GM doesn't know the solution: at best she'd be guessing; more likely she'd just be floundering. I don't want to say outright that I don't believe you, but what's the next closest thing? If his evilness was unknown to everyone [I]even including the person who was supposedly playing him[/I] (that's you the GM, by the way), then basing his words and actions on said evilness could not have been possible (though random chance could, I guess, achieve a similar result). No. But there's always a chance it might manifest in any of a gajillion different ways - or not at all. That's where the roleplaying would come in. Further, in a game like mine that has alignment detection spells and abilities if he had done or said anything that provoked undue suspicion he might have got pulled right then and there. The consistency issue comes from a number of places, not all tied to the brother example: - cause and effect consistency. If cause A leads to effect B once then logic says it will do so again if repeated, all other things being equal - in the brother example (but assuming prior interaction) if he was always evil he'd in theory have been motivated by that all along...which may or may not have given the party pause for thought; but as the evilness didn't exist in the fiction until the last minute the chance for such was lost - memory consistency: if Torvallen was 20 miles north of Qar'Nora last time we were here it needs must still be 20 miles north now we've returned (or another one: if the dungeon's ex-armoury with the painted targets on the walls was to the left at the bottom of the spiral stairs last time we visited it should still be there this time - which if it's been three years real time since that place was visited and neither players nor DM mapped the thing is likely to cause headaches unless you've got photographic memories) At the first encounter, yes. But the next encounter needs to have some consistency with or at least reference to the first one. The elf meets the same ogre again 3 months later, the ogre remembers the money the elf gave it and wants some more; it'll approach on that basis and thus trump (or very much skew) the dice. Which butchers any sense of consistency in time. The broad-brush backstory and game-world history is already there...either that, or you're playing in a vacuum...and everything is filtered through that. This is true in the real world also. I'm used to my own note-taking and memory, and those of a whole bunch of players I've DMed over the years. I'm not exaggerating at all. :) As do mine...log and other info for the current one is at [url]www.friendsofgravity.com/games/decast[/url] You're right, but only until something thought to be irrelevant suddenly takes on new importance (remember my talk of breadcrumbs earlier?) - that guy you met in passing three years ago has just become the key to everything in the players' eyes, while in the DM's eyes he was key all along and thus notes were pre-made. Doing that all from memory wouldn't work...I mean, hell, I can't even remember clearly what happened in what sequence in my session two nights ago (as I realized when I went to type up the log this afternoon! I think I got it mostly right); as I've already said, my in-session note-taking is woefully inadequate as I don't want to have to stop things while I write. It provides the focus of play. It provides a common thread. Events go on as they will, possibly influenced by the run of play and possibly not. An abandoned planned arc is still a planned arc. I played a character whose backstory was that giants had overrun his family's farm when he was a kid. His planned arc from day (and session) 1 was to take his home back, once he got big enough and bad enough through other adventuring. Years and levels later I was able to convince the other characters to go along with this...and they did, for one inconclusive adventure, after which they got bored with giants and went off elsewhere. I retired my guy at that point to carry on the fight as best he could with whatever locals he could round up. With an eye to the plot and-or story and an eye to what makes sense within the game world vis-a-vis backstory and so forth, the answer is quite simple: whenever she bloody well wants. They haven't. However, they think they have, which makes all the difference. Sure, and minor stuff like that - while at all times completely subject to DM veto - is just fine. I do it, as a player, unless the DM tells me no. But I make sure never to insert anything that would give me any undue advantage or status or suchlike. Which is one way of doing it, but I've come to realize is not my preferred way. I want a game world with history, with backstory, and with a life beyond what the PCs see. Why? Because I've also come to realize that this history/backstory/life is the richest mine imaginable for story arcs, adventures, intrugie, mystery, and all-round fun. There's some major - very major - things about my game world that no player or character yet knows...nine years in...that have been every now and then influencing things all along. Reveals will no doubt come at some point(s), but till that time if I didn't have these things already baked in then how could they have had those influences? If my character Terazon does something then in theory I as his player am responsible for it, right? Same goes for the DM when an NPC does something. But if Sauron was a PC and Elendil was another player's PC, instead of being pawns in a single-author fiction, you and loads of others would be jumping all over the Sauron-player for the PvP. This tells me that the character *is* tied to the player...and by extension all the NPCs are thus tied to the DM. So the DM does in this case have secret backstory. Good to know. And, what if the check is never made...or it is and the roll says success? The Baron causes things to happen in the game world - imaginary cause, imaginary result. The next step back shows the real DM is causing the Baron to cause those imaginary things. And, your point about "I was playing in character" in fact makes my own point above, that the character is tied to the player. So, if my character Sauron kills your character Elendil because Sauron in character is bat-spit evil and killing Elendil suits his purposes that's not me-as-player killing you-as-player. That's me-as-player playing my character to kill another character that happens to have a different player attached. Why not? In the case of RPGs it's the causal powers of imaginary people as imagined by a combination of the players and the DM that in the end gives the story (though it's up to one of us real-world types to write it down!). Lan-"a reminder to all that elf is, in fact, the other white meat"-efan [/QUOTE]
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