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Just becaue it's October - Witches?
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7254658" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I feel like much of what you write is based off a slight misunderstandings of what I wrote, possibly because as lengthy as my post was, I still rushed through very many topics and didn't clarify what I was talking about. This is leading you to jump tangentially to the point again and again, in ways that would take many posts and perhaps some forked threads to cover. Rather than going there, I'll try to stay focused on the main point.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But not by much, and D&D certainly did much to promote the conception. The modern conception of the wizard didn't predate D&D by very many decades. Even as late as Crowley, he fits within my magician as priest definition, and for that matter quite readily fits the idea of a 'witch'.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed, and that is the point. Tear the religion out of the occult tracts Gygax pursued in investigating magic to create D&D, and you end up with wizards. The less of the occult that remains in it, the more recognizably modern the class actually is. The most extreme cases would be the treatment of traditional magical powers - what we'd know call psychic powers - as targets of legitimate scientific investigation. From that we get D&D's psionic powers, but the slightly less extreme cases of magic reimagined according to the terms of science are exactly the D&D wizard, whether those terms come from fantasy designed to be palatable to a modern largely Christian audience or whether they come from actual magic practitioners wanting to lend legitimacy to their own beliefs. </p><p></p><p>But if you leave in the traditional practice, the divide between Arcane and Divide that dominates how D&D views magic doesn't really exist.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7254658, member: 4937"] I feel like much of what you write is based off a slight misunderstandings of what I wrote, possibly because as lengthy as my post was, I still rushed through very many topics and didn't clarify what I was talking about. This is leading you to jump tangentially to the point again and again, in ways that would take many posts and perhaps some forked threads to cover. Rather than going there, I'll try to stay focused on the main point. But not by much, and D&D certainly did much to promote the conception. The modern conception of the wizard didn't predate D&D by very many decades. Even as late as Crowley, he fits within my magician as priest definition, and for that matter quite readily fits the idea of a 'witch'. Agreed, and that is the point. Tear the religion out of the occult tracts Gygax pursued in investigating magic to create D&D, and you end up with wizards. The less of the occult that remains in it, the more recognizably modern the class actually is. The most extreme cases would be the treatment of traditional magical powers - what we'd know call psychic powers - as targets of legitimate scientific investigation. From that we get D&D's psionic powers, but the slightly less extreme cases of magic reimagined according to the terms of science are exactly the D&D wizard, whether those terms come from fantasy designed to be palatable to a modern largely Christian audience or whether they come from actual magic practitioners wanting to lend legitimacy to their own beliefs. But if you leave in the traditional practice, the divide between Arcane and Divide that dominates how D&D views magic doesn't really exist. [/QUOTE]
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