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<blockquote data-quote="barsoomcore" data-source="post: 1507299" data-attributes="member: 812"><p>Ah, sword talk. It warms my heart.</p><p></p><p>Indeed, you are correct. I am aware of no forms that do not use a grip in which the thumb wraps around. The spine of the weapon should pass directly down the center of the separation between thumb and forefinger (right where that little bit of webbing sits).</p><p></p><p>Again, correctamundo. Let us further note that if one were using the thumb as a sort of lever to brace the blade, one's thumb would almost certainly snap the first time a 200-pound angry person walloped their blade against yours.</p><p></p><p>Which would incommode most swordsmen significantly.</p><p></p><p>While not a fan of the show, I don't consider it any more heinous than most representations of katana fighting. The sword master was the legendary Bob Anderson, who knows more about sword fighting than I do, I'm pretty sure.</p><p></p><p>That doesn't change the fact that I've never seen such a grip used by any actual Japanese swordsman, ever.</p><p></p><p>Authenticity -- nearly zero</p><p>Coolness -- non-zero</p><p></p><p>Right you are. Your flexible Chinese sticks are quite scary. Though I find the inflexible Japanese sticks (the bo and the jo) more my style. John Q. Mayhem, you ought to feel no shame in studying with sticks. I do it myself on a regular basis.</p><p></p><p>Mm. Kurosawa's sword work is always very, very good. There's a spectacular spear fight in <em>The Hidden Fortress</em> and of course <em>The Seven Samurai</em> is full of all kinds of good stuff.</p><p></p><p><em>Brag Note: In Japan I studied Katori Shinto Ryu under Sensei Sugino Yoshio -- whose name appears in the credits of The Seven Samurai as "swordplay instructor" (it's even translated in the subtitles -- AND listed in IMDB). He was Toshiro Mifune's swordsmanship instructor and Mifune had used to come to the dojo where I studied quite regularly. He was very ill towards the end of his life, sadly and did not come any more, but he and Sensei Sugino remained good friends. Sensei Sugino has since passed away as well and now his son runs the dojo. I was very fortunate indeed to study under such a master.</em></p><p></p><p>And yes, that duel at the end of <em>Sanjuro</em> is brilliant. The form described by Darrell Craig is quite different, however. It starts from seiza (Japanese kneeling posture), with the enemy directly behind you. You draw the sword upside-down (blade down) with the right hand, move the point of the sword (pointing straight at you) across your body and stab backwards on your right side, then spin 180 degrees clockwise, lifting the right hand to the right shoulder as you do so that the tip of the blade rises (blade up, now) and intersects the enemy's wrist as his cut descends.</p><p></p><p>A snazzy flip of the sword (to a traditional grip) and you finish him off with a solid straight cut to the body.</p><p></p><p>See if some ASCII art can help out (these are overhead views):</p><p>[CODE]</p><p>START</p><p></p><p> , </p><p> (-|0 -) (you (that's your sword sticking out of your belt on the left))</p><p> ,</p><p> (-|0 -) (bad guy)</p><p></p><p></p><p>STEP ONE: DRAW (reverse grip)</p><p></p><p> |,</p><p> (-|0 -) (your right hand across your body, palm facing left, pulling the hilt forward)</p><p> ,</p><p> (- 0 -) (he has drawn his sword and now holds it over his head, ready to strike)</p><p> |</p><p> |</p><p></p><p>STEP TWO: THRUST (reverse grip)</p><p></p><p> ,</p><p> (- 0 -) (the sword crosses your body in front and thrust backward)</p><p> |</p><p> , |</p><p> (- 0 -) (he leans back to avoid the thrust, unable to cut)</p><p> |</p><p> |</p><p></p><p> </p><p>STEP THREE: SPIN (reverse grip)</p><p></p><p> (-|0 -) (now facing him, right hand up by right shoulder, cut his wrist as he cuts)</p><p> |',</p><p> (- 0 -) (your point has pulled back so he cuts, catching his wrist on your point)</p><p> |</p><p></p><p>STEP FOUR: CUT (normal grip)</p><p></p><p> (- 0 -) ( flip the sword around (hard to describe) and he's toast)</p><p> |'</p><p> (-|0 -)</p><p></p><p>[/code]</p><p>That's probably not very helpful, but it was fun to do. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p><p></p><p>I suspect the "reverse grip" comes from people watching the tonfa or police baton being used and saying to themselves "Why not do that with a sword?" There's some pretty sound physics principles that suggest why not, but when you're making a movie those aren't all that important, really, so why not?</p><p></p><p>So the usage is almost certainly bad in actual swordfights. If it were an effective technique with a katana, I think I would have seen it used. I can come up with a number of reasons why it's bad -- it becomes very easy to knock your sword out of your hand, it reduces your reach, it reduces the strength of your blows (or your blocks), and it interferes with ki projection. None of which are reasons why it doesn't look cool in movies because I think it totally does.</p><p></p><p>Probably more information than anyone else wanted. When it comes to sword talk I can get a little over-excited.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="barsoomcore, post: 1507299, member: 812"] Ah, sword talk. It warms my heart. Indeed, you are correct. I am aware of no forms that do not use a grip in which the thumb wraps around. The spine of the weapon should pass directly down the center of the separation between thumb and forefinger (right where that little bit of webbing sits). Again, correctamundo. Let us further note that if one were using the thumb as a sort of lever to brace the blade, one's thumb would almost certainly snap the first time a 200-pound angry person walloped their blade against yours. Which would incommode most swordsmen significantly. While not a fan of the show, I don't consider it any more heinous than most representations of katana fighting. The sword master was the legendary Bob Anderson, who knows more about sword fighting than I do, I'm pretty sure. That doesn't change the fact that I've never seen such a grip used by any actual Japanese swordsman, ever. Authenticity -- nearly zero Coolness -- non-zero Right you are. Your flexible Chinese sticks are quite scary. Though I find the inflexible Japanese sticks (the bo and the jo) more my style. John Q. Mayhem, you ought to feel no shame in studying with sticks. I do it myself on a regular basis. Mm. Kurosawa's sword work is always very, very good. There's a spectacular spear fight in [i]The Hidden Fortress[/i] and of course [i]The Seven Samurai[/i] is full of all kinds of good stuff. [i]Brag Note: In Japan I studied Katori Shinto Ryu under Sensei Sugino Yoshio -- whose name appears in the credits of The Seven Samurai as "swordplay instructor" (it's even translated in the subtitles -- AND listed in IMDB). He was Toshiro Mifune's swordsmanship instructor and Mifune had used to come to the dojo where I studied quite regularly. He was very ill towards the end of his life, sadly and did not come any more, but he and Sensei Sugino remained good friends. Sensei Sugino has since passed away as well and now his son runs the dojo. I was very fortunate indeed to study under such a master.[/i] And yes, that duel at the end of [i]Sanjuro[/i] is brilliant. The form described by Darrell Craig is quite different, however. It starts from seiza (Japanese kneeling posture), with the enemy directly behind you. You draw the sword upside-down (blade down) with the right hand, move the point of the sword (pointing straight at you) across your body and stab backwards on your right side, then spin 180 degrees clockwise, lifting the right hand to the right shoulder as you do so that the tip of the blade rises (blade up, now) and intersects the enemy's wrist as his cut descends. A snazzy flip of the sword (to a traditional grip) and you finish him off with a solid straight cut to the body. See if some ASCII art can help out (these are overhead views): [CODE] START , (-|0 -) (you (that's your sword sticking out of your belt on the left)) , (-|0 -) (bad guy) STEP ONE: DRAW (reverse grip) |, (-|0 -) (your right hand across your body, palm facing left, pulling the hilt forward) , (- 0 -) (he has drawn his sword and now holds it over his head, ready to strike) | | STEP TWO: THRUST (reverse grip) , (- 0 -) (the sword crosses your body in front and thrust backward) | , | (- 0 -) (he leans back to avoid the thrust, unable to cut) | | STEP THREE: SPIN (reverse grip) (-|0 -) (now facing him, right hand up by right shoulder, cut his wrist as he cuts) |', (- 0 -) (your point has pulled back so he cuts, catching his wrist on your point) | STEP FOUR: CUT (normal grip) (- 0 -) ( flip the sword around (hard to describe) and he's toast) |' (-|0 -) [/code] That's probably not very helpful, but it was fun to do. :D I suspect the "reverse grip" comes from people watching the tonfa or police baton being used and saying to themselves "Why not do that with a sword?" There's some pretty sound physics principles that suggest why not, but when you're making a movie those aren't all that important, really, so why not? So the usage is almost certainly bad in actual swordfights. If it were an effective technique with a katana, I think I would have seen it used. I can come up with a number of reasons why it's bad -- it becomes very easy to knock your sword out of your hand, it reduces your reach, it reduces the strength of your blows (or your blocks), and it interferes with ki projection. None of which are reasons why it doesn't look cool in movies because I think it totally does. Probably more information than anyone else wanted. When it comes to sword talk I can get a little over-excited. [/QUOTE]
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