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<blockquote data-quote="aspqrz" data-source="post: 7244389" data-attributes="member: 19485"><p><span style="font-size: 12px">More Horse Puckey!</span></p><p></p><p>Some sources claim that it was only with the invention/introduction of the high pommel/cantle Knight's Saddle in the 11th century that made massed Shock charges with lances possible.</p><p></p><p>The problem is, again, that this 'everyone knows' factoid is not readily supportable.</p><p></p><p>For a start, the claims that the Knightly saddle was somehow more stable for the rider are not supported by experimental re-enactors ... it has been found that the four horned saddle used by Roman cavalry clamped down on a rider when seated and actually gave them as much effective stability as the later Knightly saddle for shock charges.</p><p></p><p>The only, generally agreed to be minor, difference is that the Knightly saddle gives slightly more stability in using a sword ... generally in a sideways up and down motion as would be common after the charge has stalled.</p><p></p><p>The other issue is that, until the 11th century, western European Cavalry used Cavalry Spears - a minor variation on the standard winged/lugged Infantry Spear) and, indeed, the Cavalry Spear continued to be used alongside the lance for at least another century (and beyond, with non-Knightly medium or light cavalry). These Cavalry Spears, like the Roman Kontos/Kontarion were normally used one-handed, overhead, for thrusting but could be used couched, underarm, for a charge,</p><p></p><p>The Lance really only starts to appear in the 12th century and only becomes recognizably 'modern' from the mid 13th century when a metal ring was mounted in front of the point of grip to prevent the hand from sliding forward on impact, Even so, the designs shown in most Hollywood 'historical' movies with the thickened and flared vamplate in front of the grip only start to appear in the 15th century and, indeed, the ones shown in movies are almost universally a design that was only used in mock tournaments, not actual combat.</p><p></p><p>The main difference in usage between the Cavalry Spear and the Lance is that the latter is too heavy to be used any way but couched, and was only an impediment after the force of a charge was spent and the cavalry were meleed ... so, even if it survived the impact of any successful 'hit' during a charge they were normally thrown away after it.</p><p></p><p>Not as big an urban myth as Horse Collars, but a significant difference, nonetheless.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="aspqrz, post: 7244389, member: 19485"] [SIZE=3]More Horse Puckey![/SIZE] Some sources claim that it was only with the invention/introduction of the high pommel/cantle Knight's Saddle in the 11th century that made massed Shock charges with lances possible. The problem is, again, that this 'everyone knows' factoid is not readily supportable. For a start, the claims that the Knightly saddle was somehow more stable for the rider are not supported by experimental re-enactors ... it has been found that the four horned saddle used by Roman cavalry clamped down on a rider when seated and actually gave them as much effective stability as the later Knightly saddle for shock charges. The only, generally agreed to be minor, difference is that the Knightly saddle gives slightly more stability in using a sword ... generally in a sideways up and down motion as would be common after the charge has stalled. The other issue is that, until the 11th century, western European Cavalry used Cavalry Spears - a minor variation on the standard winged/lugged Infantry Spear) and, indeed, the Cavalry Spear continued to be used alongside the lance for at least another century (and beyond, with non-Knightly medium or light cavalry). These Cavalry Spears, like the Roman Kontos/Kontarion were normally used one-handed, overhead, for thrusting but could be used couched, underarm, for a charge, The Lance really only starts to appear in the 12th century and only becomes recognizably 'modern' from the mid 13th century when a metal ring was mounted in front of the point of grip to prevent the hand from sliding forward on impact, Even so, the designs shown in most Hollywood 'historical' movies with the thickened and flared vamplate in front of the grip only start to appear in the 15th century and, indeed, the ones shown in movies are almost universally a design that was only used in mock tournaments, not actual combat. The main difference in usage between the Cavalry Spear and the Lance is that the latter is too heavy to be used any way but couched, and was only an impediment after the force of a charge was spent and the cavalry were meleed ... so, even if it survived the impact of any successful 'hit' during a charge they were normally thrown away after it. Not as big an urban myth as Horse Collars, but a significant difference, nonetheless. [/QUOTE]
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