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<blockquote data-quote="loviatarfrostbringer" data-source="post: 320011" data-attributes="member: 3514"><p>In defence of KoK Players' Guide, specifically Irresistable - </p><p></p><p>The "Irresistable spell" metamagic feat is nasty - no doubt about it. But IMHO it is at least fair at +4 to the base level.</p><p>I am not a munchkin, and sure as hell my players squaked when I threw an irresistable fireball at the monk & rogue. Players will always scream bloody murder and foul when a power/ability they see an unassailable is challenged (in this case, Evasion). Does anybody remember the multiple pages of the discussion in this very forum about Evasion and people losing it in certain situations?</p><p></p><p>And for those of you who do not have the KOK player's guide, the spellcaster must take Maximize and one other kinda-lame campiagn-created metamagic feat as prerequisites...and you still have to add +4 to the spell. And <em>Irresistable</em> isn't absolutely it's namesake. The spell only has the saving throw changed to "None". The creature still has its SR, creature type-specific immunities, pre-cast defensive spells etc. to defend versus the spell.</p><p></p><p>I threw an irresistable hold person against the fighter. Now, it is possible (but unlikely) that the fighter would have made the save but the NPC didn't want to take the chance. The spell effect is easily dismissed/suppressed however. Dispel Magic, remove paralysis and freedom of movement are all possible ways. Now, granted that an Irresistable Hold Person is 7th (Sor/Wiz) level and the closest "screw-you-over-type" is Otto's Irresistable Dance at 8th; however, Otto's is melee touch (I concede that over hold person's ranged targetting) and wholely unstoppable except by dispel magic (I will not count Anti-Magic since it stops everything). Irresistable hold person is just plain "good-for-the-goose-good-for-the-gander" once spell turning is thrown into the equation.</p><p></p><p>An irresistable fireball is less powerful overall when compared to a twice-empowered version (and maximized fireball is numerically only slightly weaker...but one level less too). Only the Evasion ability is really turned on it's head with the irresistable metamagic feat is added. Irresistable boils down to, functionally and numerically, +3 for maximize and +1 for the ability to bypass evasion. That +1 is like a <em>silent</em> dimension door in a silence field - useful in a situation where a spellcaster finds himself in such a cheesy trap (btw, if you haven't guessed, I find evasion a powerful ability and one that I think players take too much for granted...especially since all someone needs to do is take 2 lvls of monk or 3 rogue levels to get it).</p><p></p><p>An irresitable charm person is interesting. Sure, the first save is automatically failed, but if the enchanter forces the creature to do something wholely against his alignment, the creature gets a save to break.</p><p></p><p>Someone posted the irresistable magic jar earlier versus a god. Funny, but if the god doesn't have protection from good/evil/law/chaos already precast or permanent, he's daft. Not to mention, the magic jarring character has to beat such a powerful SR AND the other god's friends?!?!? It is a 9th level spell! It is supposed to be nasty! Not to be trifled with! Bad mojo! 9th level spells universally are supposed to be feared and respected.</p><p></p><p>I agree with everyone that irresistable is not for everyone. If you don't like it, as a DM you can refuse it and as a player you don't have to play in that campaign (or you can find the numerous usually low level spells that counter these metamagic-pumped monsters). I also concede that not every spell is balanced equally when using Irresistable (hold person vs fireball vs. burning hands) but they had to assign some number to it, and +4 seems right on average. If you can kill a character by polymorphing him into a fish and that is with a 4th level spell, what is wrong (except for the ignobility) of being irresistably held (7th level spell) and coup de graced?</p><p></p><p>I await your comments, but be warned I am wearing asbestos underwear <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /> .</p><p></p><p>We now return you to your regularly scheduled propaganda.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="loviatarfrostbringer, post: 320011, member: 3514"] In defence of KoK Players' Guide, specifically Irresistable - The "Irresistable spell" metamagic feat is nasty - no doubt about it. But IMHO it is at least fair at +4 to the base level. I am not a munchkin, and sure as hell my players squaked when I threw an irresistable fireball at the monk & rogue. Players will always scream bloody murder and foul when a power/ability they see an unassailable is challenged (in this case, Evasion). Does anybody remember the multiple pages of the discussion in this very forum about Evasion and people losing it in certain situations? And for those of you who do not have the KOK player's guide, the spellcaster must take Maximize and one other kinda-lame campiagn-created metamagic feat as prerequisites...and you still have to add +4 to the spell. And [I]Irresistable[/I] isn't absolutely it's namesake. The spell only has the saving throw changed to "None". The creature still has its SR, creature type-specific immunities, pre-cast defensive spells etc. to defend versus the spell. I threw an irresistable hold person against the fighter. Now, it is possible (but unlikely) that the fighter would have made the save but the NPC didn't want to take the chance. The spell effect is easily dismissed/suppressed however. Dispel Magic, remove paralysis and freedom of movement are all possible ways. Now, granted that an Irresistable Hold Person is 7th (Sor/Wiz) level and the closest "screw-you-over-type" is Otto's Irresistable Dance at 8th; however, Otto's is melee touch (I concede that over hold person's ranged targetting) and wholely unstoppable except by dispel magic (I will not count Anti-Magic since it stops everything). Irresistable hold person is just plain "good-for-the-goose-good-for-the-gander" once spell turning is thrown into the equation. An irresistable fireball is less powerful overall when compared to a twice-empowered version (and maximized fireball is numerically only slightly weaker...but one level less too). Only the Evasion ability is really turned on it's head with the irresistable metamagic feat is added. Irresistable boils down to, functionally and numerically, +3 for maximize and +1 for the ability to bypass evasion. That +1 is like a [I]silent[/I] dimension door in a silence field - useful in a situation where a spellcaster finds himself in such a cheesy trap (btw, if you haven't guessed, I find evasion a powerful ability and one that I think players take too much for granted...especially since all someone needs to do is take 2 lvls of monk or 3 rogue levels to get it). An irresitable charm person is interesting. Sure, the first save is automatically failed, but if the enchanter forces the creature to do something wholely against his alignment, the creature gets a save to break. Someone posted the irresistable magic jar earlier versus a god. Funny, but if the god doesn't have protection from good/evil/law/chaos already precast or permanent, he's daft. Not to mention, the magic jarring character has to beat such a powerful SR AND the other god's friends?!?!? It is a 9th level spell! It is supposed to be nasty! Not to be trifled with! Bad mojo! 9th level spells universally are supposed to be feared and respected. I agree with everyone that irresistable is not for everyone. If you don't like it, as a DM you can refuse it and as a player you don't have to play in that campaign (or you can find the numerous usually low level spells that counter these metamagic-pumped monsters). I also concede that not every spell is balanced equally when using Irresistable (hold person vs fireball vs. burning hands) but they had to assign some number to it, and +4 seems right on average. If you can kill a character by polymorphing him into a fish and that is with a 4th level spell, what is wrong (except for the ignobility) of being irresistably held (7th level spell) and coup de graced? I await your comments, but be warned I am wearing asbestos underwear :D . We now return you to your regularly scheduled propaganda. [/QUOTE]
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