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*Pathfinder & Starfinder
KINGMAKER: Crazy idea, or crazy like a fox?
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<blockquote data-quote="abchurch" data-source="post: 5168004" data-attributes="member: 66061"><p>Hi everyone:</p><p></p><p>Long time lurker, haven't posted in ages, if ever. Long time DM of all versions of D&D dating back to '82, now we are all in with Pathfinder.</p><p></p><p>However, as we've gotten older and less time on our hands, we only play pregenerated material. That being said, hardly anyone supports prewritten full campaigns to level 20 and beyond, and Pathfinder is no exception.</p><p></p><p>We started playing Pathfinder with the excellent Council of Thieves adventure path, but we know that it basically ends with the party making level 13.</p><p></p><p>Then Kingmaker is out, but it starts over at level 1. Who wants to keep playing characters from 1 to x level and then quit?</p><p></p><p>Here's my crazy idea. Since Pathfinder is not like 3.5E experience, where low level CRs render 0 experience, and also given that with the Leadership feat, experience for cohorts is slightly different:</p><p></p><p>WHAT IF KINGMAKER came RIGHT AFTER Council of Thieves, with zero changes, and with the same characters?</p><p></p><p>Obviously the challenges would be a bit different. Kingmaker is designed to take characters from 1st to 17th-18th (?? right??), so eventually the campaign would catch up with their level. Everyone, including the heroes, would gain xp, albeit slowly, and give an opportunity to play more with the cohorts and occasionally the followers that Council of Thieves wanted to semi-railroad you in to (the Children of Westcrown).</p><p></p><p>As of this moment, only one character has taken leadership, but it is feasible that if the campaign took a less difficult stance for a while, more may "follow."</p><p></p><p>Look at the progression of the Council of Thieves campaign. Here is the expected party level at the beginning of each book:</p><p></p><p>1: Level 1</p><p>2: Level 3</p><p>3: Level 5</p><p>4: Level 7</p><p>5: Level 9</p><p>6: Level 11</p><p>End campaign at Level 13</p><p></p><p>Now lets look at Kingmaker. Here is the expected party level at the beginning of each book:</p><p></p><p>1: Level 1</p><p>2: Level 5</p><p>3: Level 7</p><p>4: Level 10</p><p>5: Level 13</p><p>6: Level 15</p><p>End campaign at Level 17-18</p><p></p><p>Given that the experience point total for a character at the end of the Council of Thieves will be around 315,000xp (the campaign is using medium progression), then if they theoretically played through Kingmaker, here is the party level at each book:</p><p></p><p>1: Level 13</p><p>2: Level 13</p><p>3: Level 13</p><p>4: Level 13 (But they quickly level to 14th)</p><p>5: Level 15</p><p>6: Level 16</p><p>End campaign at the high end of Level 17, but most likely somewhat in to 18th level.</p><p></p><p>This way it appears that the characters would not face a notable combat challenge until the 4th book, of which they should still progress fairly smoothly. However, by book 5, they are getting close to the same levels, and may start encountering CRs of their level or slightly higher. By book 6, they are barely ahead of the curve, turning what was originally an easy campaign of heroes in the land into a real challenge.</p><p></p><p>Admittedly, I haven't read the Kingmaker campaign yet. Do you think this is feasible? Obviously the heroes would be 13th level for quite a while, and their cohorts, if any, would likely be 11th for a while, which would make the first couple or three adventures pretty easy combat-wise.</p><p></p><p>Is this a good decision? What do you think the ramifications would be? Note that my players are really power-gamers even though some of them role play a lot, and may appreciate being able to absolutely whup some things for a while. However, I am not sure if the Kingmaker style of campaign fits well with more capable characters. The party dynamic is:</p><p></p><p>Human Paladin (tank role)</p><p>Elven Mystic Theurge (cleric role) with cohort</p><p> Elven Barbarian, cohort</p><p>Half-Elven Duelist (rogue role)</p><p>Human Enchantress (wizard role)</p><p></p><p>So the party dynamic seems to lend itself well to Kingmaker, seeing that the Mystic Theurge has already been forced in to a Venture-Captain role with the Pathfinder Society and the Enchantress has a disturbingly high diplomacy score.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="abchurch, post: 5168004, member: 66061"] Hi everyone: Long time lurker, haven't posted in ages, if ever. Long time DM of all versions of D&D dating back to '82, now we are all in with Pathfinder. However, as we've gotten older and less time on our hands, we only play pregenerated material. That being said, hardly anyone supports prewritten full campaigns to level 20 and beyond, and Pathfinder is no exception. We started playing Pathfinder with the excellent Council of Thieves adventure path, but we know that it basically ends with the party making level 13. Then Kingmaker is out, but it starts over at level 1. Who wants to keep playing characters from 1 to x level and then quit? Here's my crazy idea. Since Pathfinder is not like 3.5E experience, where low level CRs render 0 experience, and also given that with the Leadership feat, experience for cohorts is slightly different: WHAT IF KINGMAKER came RIGHT AFTER Council of Thieves, with zero changes, and with the same characters? Obviously the challenges would be a bit different. Kingmaker is designed to take characters from 1st to 17th-18th (?? right??), so eventually the campaign would catch up with their level. Everyone, including the heroes, would gain xp, albeit slowly, and give an opportunity to play more with the cohorts and occasionally the followers that Council of Thieves wanted to semi-railroad you in to (the Children of Westcrown). As of this moment, only one character has taken leadership, but it is feasible that if the campaign took a less difficult stance for a while, more may "follow." Look at the progression of the Council of Thieves campaign. Here is the expected party level at the beginning of each book: 1: Level 1 2: Level 3 3: Level 5 4: Level 7 5: Level 9 6: Level 11 End campaign at Level 13 Now lets look at Kingmaker. Here is the expected party level at the beginning of each book: 1: Level 1 2: Level 5 3: Level 7 4: Level 10 5: Level 13 6: Level 15 End campaign at Level 17-18 Given that the experience point total for a character at the end of the Council of Thieves will be around 315,000xp (the campaign is using medium progression), then if they theoretically played through Kingmaker, here is the party level at each book: 1: Level 13 2: Level 13 3: Level 13 4: Level 13 (But they quickly level to 14th) 5: Level 15 6: Level 16 End campaign at the high end of Level 17, but most likely somewhat in to 18th level. This way it appears that the characters would not face a notable combat challenge until the 4th book, of which they should still progress fairly smoothly. However, by book 5, they are getting close to the same levels, and may start encountering CRs of their level or slightly higher. By book 6, they are barely ahead of the curve, turning what was originally an easy campaign of heroes in the land into a real challenge. Admittedly, I haven't read the Kingmaker campaign yet. Do you think this is feasible? Obviously the heroes would be 13th level for quite a while, and their cohorts, if any, would likely be 11th for a while, which would make the first couple or three adventures pretty easy combat-wise. Is this a good decision? What do you think the ramifications would be? Note that my players are really power-gamers even though some of them role play a lot, and may appreciate being able to absolutely whup some things for a while. However, I am not sure if the Kingmaker style of campaign fits well with more capable characters. The party dynamic is: Human Paladin (tank role) Elven Mystic Theurge (cleric role) with cohort Elven Barbarian, cohort Half-Elven Duelist (rogue role) Human Enchantress (wizard role) So the party dynamic seems to lend itself well to Kingmaker, seeing that the Mystic Theurge has already been forced in to a Venture-Captain role with the Pathfinder Society and the Enchantress has a disturbingly high diplomacy score. [/QUOTE]
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