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<blockquote data-quote="Dannyalcatraz" data-source="post: 6010606" data-attributes="member: 19675"><p>I forgot no such thing. Re-read my posts. Were I forgetting this, I would not be telling you his reach with a polearm is 20', not 30'.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Last things first: I'm not forgetting the effect of the feats on reach <strong>at all</strong>. When I talk about the normal Human, I am setting up the PHB baseline situation before the Vile and Aberration feats existed as a control. A contrast.</p><p></p><p>Then- <em>each and every time</em>- I account for the feats' extension of the character's arms to 15' and apply the rules of Reach <strong>AND</strong> weapon size. Otherwise I would not be telling you his reach with a polearm is 20'.</p><p></p><p>As for who is stating RAW- yes you are quoting the RAW on what the reach rule says, but <em><strong>you are completely ignoring the RAW of the weapon sizes chart.</strong></em>. When your PC has a reach of 15', it is impossible for a mundane 8' weapon to give him a reach of 30'.</p><p></p><p>If you want to say someone is houseruling here, look in the mirror, since you are tossing out part of the rules to get a reach of 30' in this situation.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, I'm not- I'm pointing out a conflict of rules that requires interpretation.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A reading of ALL the rules regarding weapons, both the (poorly worded) Reach rules and the weapon size rules.</p><p></p><p>Realizing they are in conflict in this case that arises ONLY due to subsequently published material that exposes the awkwardness of the reach rules' formulation, I use my rational mind to figure out what the RAI is.</p><p></p><p>Which is more likely? Did the game designers intend that:</p><p></p><p>1) a creature with 15' of reach using an 8' weapon has 20' of reach </p><p></p><p>OR</p><p></p><p>2) a creature with 15' of reach using an 8' weapon has 30' of reach </p><p></p><p>I'm going with 1.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"Natural" doesn't even play into my analysis, only:</p><p></p><p>1) "Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square."</p><p></p><p>AND</p><p></p><p>2) "A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder." Which we see by reference to <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreaturesInCombat" target="_blank">this chart</a> means a medium size polearm- the biggest this guy can use since he has neither Monkey Grip nor Powerful build- is only 8' long at maximum.</p><p></p><p>Viewed in the light of the second rule- the one you are conveniently ignoring- a medium size polearm (max length 8') cannot possibly give a size M creature with 15' of reach a reach of 30'. That result can only happen if you ignore the second rule, which is no less RAW than the reach rule you're focused on to the exclusion of all others.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Dannyalcatraz, post: 6010606, member: 19675"] I forgot no such thing. Re-read my posts. Were I forgetting this, I would not be telling you his reach with a polearm is 20', not 30'. Last things first: I'm not forgetting the effect of the feats on reach [B]at all[/B]. When I talk about the normal Human, I am setting up the PHB baseline situation before the Vile and Aberration feats existed as a control. A contrast. Then- [I]each and every time[/I]- I account for the feats' extension of the character's arms to 15' and apply the rules of Reach [B]AND[/B] weapon size. Otherwise I would not be telling you his reach with a polearm is 20'. As for who is stating RAW- yes you are quoting the RAW on what the reach rule says, but [I][B]you are completely ignoring the RAW of the weapon sizes chart.[/B][/I]. When your PC has a reach of 15', it is impossible for a mundane 8' weapon to give him a reach of 30'. If you want to say someone is houseruling here, look in the mirror, since you are tossing out part of the rules to get a reach of 30' in this situation. No, I'm not- I'm pointing out a conflict of rules that requires interpretation. A reading of ALL the rules regarding weapons, both the (poorly worded) Reach rules and the weapon size rules. Realizing they are in conflict in this case that arises ONLY due to subsequently published material that exposes the awkwardness of the reach rules' formulation, I use my rational mind to figure out what the RAI is. Which is more likely? Did the game designers intend that: 1) a creature with 15' of reach using an 8' weapon has 20' of reach OR 2) a creature with 15' of reach using an 8' weapon has 30' of reach I'm going with 1. "Natural" doesn't even play into my analysis, only: 1) "Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square." AND 2) "A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder." Which we see by reference to [URL="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#bigandLittleCreaturesInCombat"]this chart[/URL] means a medium size polearm- the biggest this guy can use since he has neither Monkey Grip nor Powerful build- is only 8' long at maximum. Viewed in the light of the second rule- the one you are conveniently ignoring- a medium size polearm (max length 8') cannot possibly give a size M creature with 15' of reach a reach of 30'. That result can only happen if you ignore the second rule, which is no less RAW than the reach rule you're focused on to the exclusion of all others. [/QUOTE]
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