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L&L 3/05 - Save or Die!
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5844974" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>There is the passage that refers to <em>surviving</em> the gaze of the Medusa, that both Dausuul and I cited.</p><p></p><p>There is the fact that if you are blindfolded or otherwise are not looking at it or cannot see it (perhaps based on a concealment % chance), you don't need to save.</p><p></p><p>There is the fact that it is a Fortitude save, which is obviously a "toughing it out" thing rather than an "averting one's eyes" thing (the latter would be either Reflex as Dausuul suggested, or Will - to avoid the lure of the gaze - as [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] suggested). For the sceptical, here is the relevant text from the SRD on Fortitude saves:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">These saves measure your ability to stand up to physical punishment or attacks against your vitality and health.</p><p></p><p>A Fortitude save does not represent averting one's eyes. It represents, in this case, "standing up to" the petrifying gaze of the Medusa, which threatens the "vitality and health" of one's body.</p><p></p><p>Given that the rules state that it is possible to survive the gaze of a medusa - presumably by toughing it out, given that the save in question is a Fortitude save, I don't agree. I'm not holding you to some standard of not getting it wrong. I'm just quoting the relevant rules text.</p><p></p><p>As I said in the post to which you replied, what you say <em>may</em> be true of AD&D (a Petrification save, for example, might reflect averting one's eyes at the last minute, rather than toughing it out) although I think the OSRIC text pushes somewhat in Hussar's direction. But it seems to me just obviously false of 3E.</p><p></p><p>This is one respect in which the difference between the strongly simulationist leanings of 3E - including its simulationist reconceptualisation of saving throws - and the more fortuen-in-the-middle approach of AD&D becomes apparent.</p><p></p><p>This.</p><p></p><p>And this. I don't see any difference between houseruling away the saving throw of the 3E PC who goes eyeball-to-eyeball with the Medusa, and houseruling away the first two SSs of an SSSoD Medusa.</p><p></p><p>And just to reiterate - as I said above, I think AD&D <em>may</em> be a different beast here. The wiggle room in the OSRIC text at least opens the possibility to the alternative reading, although I think it is still most naturally read as implying that the save represents resistance/endurance rather than averting one's eyes.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5844974, member: 42582"] There is the passage that refers to [I]surviving[/I] the gaze of the Medusa, that both Dausuul and I cited. There is the fact that if you are blindfolded or otherwise are not looking at it or cannot see it (perhaps based on a concealment % chance), you don't need to save. There is the fact that it is a Fortitude save, which is obviously a "toughing it out" thing rather than an "averting one's eyes" thing (the latter would be either Reflex as Dausuul suggested, or Will - to avoid the lure of the gaze - as [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] suggested). For the sceptical, here is the relevant text from the SRD on Fortitude saves: [indent]These saves measure your ability to stand up to physical punishment or attacks against your vitality and health.[/indent] A Fortitude save does not represent averting one's eyes. It represents, in this case, "standing up to" the petrifying gaze of the Medusa, which threatens the "vitality and health" of one's body. Given that the rules state that it is possible to survive the gaze of a medusa - presumably by toughing it out, given that the save in question is a Fortitude save, I don't agree. I'm not holding you to some standard of not getting it wrong. I'm just quoting the relevant rules text. As I said in the post to which you replied, what you say [I]may[/I] be true of AD&D (a Petrification save, for example, might reflect averting one's eyes at the last minute, rather than toughing it out) although I think the OSRIC text pushes somewhat in Hussar's direction. But it seems to me just obviously false of 3E. This is one respect in which the difference between the strongly simulationist leanings of 3E - including its simulationist reconceptualisation of saving throws - and the more fortuen-in-the-middle approach of AD&D becomes apparent. This. And this. I don't see any difference between houseruling away the saving throw of the 3E PC who goes eyeball-to-eyeball with the Medusa, and houseruling away the first two SSs of an SSSoD Medusa. And just to reiterate - as I said above, I think AD&D [I]may[/I] be a different beast here. The wiggle room in the OSRIC text at least opens the possibility to the alternative reading, although I think it is still most naturally read as implying that the save represents resistance/endurance rather than averting one's eyes. [/QUOTE]
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