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L&L: Putting the Vance in Vancian
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<blockquote data-quote="Ainamacar" data-source="post: 5833294" data-attributes="member: 70709"><p>I think that the spontaneous casters, or at least the sorcerer-like ones where the spontaneity is considered a form of innate magic, are much better ground than wizards for requiring an arcana check (or whatever) to learn a spell than a wizard. Basically, the sorcerer is trying to conform himself (his essence) to a particular thing, while a wizard's magic is usually considered more malleable. There are obviously balance issues if this sort of thing goes unhindered. Perhaps the difficulty to do so increases for each spell learned in this way. However, at some point it is worth asking why not just give the sorcerer a few more spell slots and be done with it.</p><p></p><p>A better solution might be to let the sorcerer define a domain/bloodline/whatever of spells which can be learned without a roll, but permit them to learn any other spell with some sort of check (which could be repeated once per level perhaps). These would still count against the same pool of maximum known spells, however. Or if sorcerers use feats to build their spell lists, perhaps there is a feat that lets them learn a spell if they have a scroll. Either way, the total number of known spells would be tightly controlled, but it would give sorcerer's the feel of expanding their repertoire based on what they encounter in the world. The downside is that rules like bloodlines which restrict the spells that can be known means it is hard to build a sorcerer for which there is currently no coherent bloodline. In 3.5 part of the enjoyment I had with sorcerers was creating a coherent theme from the raw material of the entire Sor/Wiz spell list.</p><p></p><p>Even so, it might be possible to find a middle ground between rigid bloodlines and somewhat malleable ones. For example, perhaps bloodlines restrict which spells can be taken automatically and grant these spells a special bonus, but do not otherwise restrict what spell can be learned (or do so more loosely). Then a character might be able to learn any kind of spell, but make a check when doing so to see if they can treat themselves as having an appropriate bloodline for that spell. For example, maybe a sorcerer has the fire bloodline and thus increases the die type by 1 for all damage die with fire spells. If that sorcerer learns Chain Lightning perhaps there is a check that can be made which would grant, for the purposes of using that spell alone, access to a Storm bloodline. Or learning Dimension Door, which is flavored as disappearing in a puff of smoke, one might be able to gain a silent benefit from some other bloodline to reflect its coherence with the primary bloodline. In other words, a method to "discover" fragments of other bloodlines and unexpected facets of existing ones without having to spend the probably significant character resources to simply grant oneself a whole new bloodline for the sake of a spell or two.</p><p></p><p>---</p><p></p><p>With respect to feats granting at-will magical abilities, I think the idea can work well. To avoid making it feel like a feat tax the normal way of gaining spells and/or spell slots should also require spending feats. To avoid the problem of the 3.5 fighter (where many feats were quite underwhelming compared to proper class features) one simply needs to make sure they aren't underwhelming. This is a lot easier if feats are the primary resource of all classes rather than just one, and "class features" are limited to just those things learned early on or infrequently that permit the class to work as intended in the first place.</p><p></p><p>For example, perhaps the wizard gains a spellcasting feat at every level. The feat that enables Vancian casting might be something like "gains 1+half level" spell "slots", where the half-level part always refers to the character's current level and not the level when it was taken. Then the character can divide up these slots as desired, but is required to have no more spells in each level than in the level below it. Assuming spells go up to 9th level, a spell requires a number of slots equal to its level, and a "full wizard" starts with 3 such feats at level 1, then the total number of spell slots for a full Vancian wizard (who has level+2 such feats) is (level+2)*(floor(level/2)+1), and the "optimal filling" maximizes the number of spells by prioritizing the high-level spells. (I'm assuming new spell access at the traditional odd levels.)</p><p>[code]</p><p>Level Slots Optimal filling Total spells</p><p>1 3 3 3</p><p>2 8 8 8</p><p>3 10 4,3 7</p><p>4 18 6,6 12</p><p>5 21 4,4,3 11</p><p>6 32 7,5,5 17</p><p>7 36 4,4,4,3 15</p><p>8 50 5,5,5,5 20</p><p>9 55 4,4,4,4,3 19</p><p>10 72 5,5,5,4,4 23</p><p>11 78 4,4,4,4,4,3 23</p><p>12 98 7,5,5,4,4,4 29</p><p>13 105 4,4,4,4,4,4,3 27</p><p>14 128 6,5,5,5,5,4,4 34</p><p>15 136 3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3 24</p><p>16 162 6,6,5,5,5,4,4,4 39</p><p>17 171 4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,3 35</p><p>18 200 7,6,5,5,5,4,4,4,4 44</p><p>19 210 8,6,5,5,5,4,4,4,4 45</p><p>20 242 8,6,6,6,6,5,5,5,5 52</p><p>[/code]This is a very 3e-like progression, comparable to a specialist wizard with a large Int bonus. I'd also note that various ways of multiclassing will be much better than in 3.5, where grabbing just a level or two in wizard was almost worthless. For example, a 20th level character with 1 level of wizard (perhaps worth 1 feat of spellcasting rather than 3) would still have 11 slots, which could be worth {2,1,1,1} level spells if spell-access were determined by character level rather than wizard level. If the 20th level character had 5-levels of wizard (so 55 points) the list might look more like {2,2,2,2,1,1,1,1,1}, granting limited access to all 9 levels of spells. Whether this specific scheme works for game balance and ease-of-play isn't my point, just that it could recreate a very familiar type of Wizard by spending one feat per level, while allowing for other options.</p><p></p><p>Thus, a more 4e-like wizard could choose to take the "at-will" feats instead of the feat above when it levels up. The balance would be very dependent on the rest of the spell system, of course, but as long as the at-will spells scale with level something like this is possible.</p><p></p><p>And naturally, for many creatures a mix will be desirable. A 20th level wizard might take 15 Vancian feats plus 7 "signature spell" feats. Using the math above that would give it 165 levels worth of spells, about {6,4,4,4,4,4,4,3,3}, comparable to a full-Vancian caster at level 17 plus all the extra stuff from the 7 other feats. As noted earlier, a character with 5 Vancian feats would still be able to cast at least one spell of each level in a Vancian fashion, and would have 17 feats worth of at-will or related stuff to go around.</p><p></p><p>Or consider a 6th level wizard. If that wizard chose 4 at-will feats and 4 Vancian feats the caster would have 16 spell levels to go around, probably {4,3,2} Vancian slots plus whatever the at-will effects do. Compare this to a full Vancian 6th-level wizard, with 32 spell levels giving Vancian slots like {7,5,5}. I don't think it's too hard to imagine 4 at-will effects (or upgrades) that might be worth that cost. For some people at-will effects would primarily be used to define the basic combat options and then keep a host of useful utility spells in the slots. For others, flexibility in combat may be more important but some utility at-wills are so handy in everyday life or other situations that they never want to allocate slots just to do everyday wizardy tasks.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ainamacar, post: 5833294, member: 70709"] I think that the spontaneous casters, or at least the sorcerer-like ones where the spontaneity is considered a form of innate magic, are much better ground than wizards for requiring an arcana check (or whatever) to learn a spell than a wizard. Basically, the sorcerer is trying to conform himself (his essence) to a particular thing, while a wizard's magic is usually considered more malleable. There are obviously balance issues if this sort of thing goes unhindered. Perhaps the difficulty to do so increases for each spell learned in this way. However, at some point it is worth asking why not just give the sorcerer a few more spell slots and be done with it. A better solution might be to let the sorcerer define a domain/bloodline/whatever of spells which can be learned without a roll, but permit them to learn any other spell with some sort of check (which could be repeated once per level perhaps). These would still count against the same pool of maximum known spells, however. Or if sorcerers use feats to build their spell lists, perhaps there is a feat that lets them learn a spell if they have a scroll. Either way, the total number of known spells would be tightly controlled, but it would give sorcerer's the feel of expanding their repertoire based on what they encounter in the world. The downside is that rules like bloodlines which restrict the spells that can be known means it is hard to build a sorcerer for which there is currently no coherent bloodline. In 3.5 part of the enjoyment I had with sorcerers was creating a coherent theme from the raw material of the entire Sor/Wiz spell list. Even so, it might be possible to find a middle ground between rigid bloodlines and somewhat malleable ones. For example, perhaps bloodlines restrict which spells can be taken automatically and grant these spells a special bonus, but do not otherwise restrict what spell can be learned (or do so more loosely). Then a character might be able to learn any kind of spell, but make a check when doing so to see if they can treat themselves as having an appropriate bloodline for that spell. For example, maybe a sorcerer has the fire bloodline and thus increases the die type by 1 for all damage die with fire spells. If that sorcerer learns Chain Lightning perhaps there is a check that can be made which would grant, for the purposes of using that spell alone, access to a Storm bloodline. Or learning Dimension Door, which is flavored as disappearing in a puff of smoke, one might be able to gain a silent benefit from some other bloodline to reflect its coherence with the primary bloodline. In other words, a method to "discover" fragments of other bloodlines and unexpected facets of existing ones without having to spend the probably significant character resources to simply grant oneself a whole new bloodline for the sake of a spell or two. --- With respect to feats granting at-will magical abilities, I think the idea can work well. To avoid making it feel like a feat tax the normal way of gaining spells and/or spell slots should also require spending feats. To avoid the problem of the 3.5 fighter (where many feats were quite underwhelming compared to proper class features) one simply needs to make sure they aren't underwhelming. This is a lot easier if feats are the primary resource of all classes rather than just one, and "class features" are limited to just those things learned early on or infrequently that permit the class to work as intended in the first place. For example, perhaps the wizard gains a spellcasting feat at every level. The feat that enables Vancian casting might be something like "gains 1+half level" spell "slots", where the half-level part always refers to the character's current level and not the level when it was taken. Then the character can divide up these slots as desired, but is required to have no more spells in each level than in the level below it. Assuming spells go up to 9th level, a spell requires a number of slots equal to its level, and a "full wizard" starts with 3 such feats at level 1, then the total number of spell slots for a full Vancian wizard (who has level+2 such feats) is (level+2)*(floor(level/2)+1), and the "optimal filling" maximizes the number of spells by prioritizing the high-level spells. (I'm assuming new spell access at the traditional odd levels.) [code] Level Slots Optimal filling Total spells 1 3 3 3 2 8 8 8 3 10 4,3 7 4 18 6,6 12 5 21 4,4,3 11 6 32 7,5,5 17 7 36 4,4,4,3 15 8 50 5,5,5,5 20 9 55 4,4,4,4,3 19 10 72 5,5,5,4,4 23 11 78 4,4,4,4,4,3 23 12 98 7,5,5,4,4,4 29 13 105 4,4,4,4,4,4,3 27 14 128 6,5,5,5,5,4,4 34 15 136 3,3,3,3,3,3,3,3 24 16 162 6,6,5,5,5,4,4,4 39 17 171 4,4,4,4,4,4,4,4,3 35 18 200 7,6,5,5,5,4,4,4,4 44 19 210 8,6,5,5,5,4,4,4,4 45 20 242 8,6,6,6,6,5,5,5,5 52 [/code]This is a very 3e-like progression, comparable to a specialist wizard with a large Int bonus. I'd also note that various ways of multiclassing will be much better than in 3.5, where grabbing just a level or two in wizard was almost worthless. For example, a 20th level character with 1 level of wizard (perhaps worth 1 feat of spellcasting rather than 3) would still have 11 slots, which could be worth {2,1,1,1} level spells if spell-access were determined by character level rather than wizard level. If the 20th level character had 5-levels of wizard (so 55 points) the list might look more like {2,2,2,2,1,1,1,1,1}, granting limited access to all 9 levels of spells. Whether this specific scheme works for game balance and ease-of-play isn't my point, just that it could recreate a very familiar type of Wizard by spending one feat per level, while allowing for other options. Thus, a more 4e-like wizard could choose to take the "at-will" feats instead of the feat above when it levels up. The balance would be very dependent on the rest of the spell system, of course, but as long as the at-will spells scale with level something like this is possible. And naturally, for many creatures a mix will be desirable. A 20th level wizard might take 15 Vancian feats plus 7 "signature spell" feats. Using the math above that would give it 165 levels worth of spells, about {6,4,4,4,4,4,4,3,3}, comparable to a full-Vancian caster at level 17 plus all the extra stuff from the 7 other feats. As noted earlier, a character with 5 Vancian feats would still be able to cast at least one spell of each level in a Vancian fashion, and would have 17 feats worth of at-will or related stuff to go around. Or consider a 6th level wizard. If that wizard chose 4 at-will feats and 4 Vancian feats the caster would have 16 spell levels to go around, probably {4,3,2} Vancian slots plus whatever the at-will effects do. Compare this to a full Vancian 6th-level wizard, with 32 spell levels giving Vancian slots like {7,5,5}. I don't think it's too hard to imagine 4 at-will effects (or upgrades) that might be worth that cost. For some people at-will effects would primarily be used to define the basic combat options and then keep a host of useful utility spells in the slots. For others, flexibility in combat may be more important but some utility at-wills are so handy in everyday life or other situations that they never want to allocate slots just to do everyday wizardy tasks. [/QUOTE]
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