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L&L: Putting the Vance in Vancian
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<blockquote data-quote="Crazy Jerome" data-source="post: 5837916" data-attributes="member: 54877"><p>If that was all 4E is, they wouldn't. However, 4E is a strong blend of gamist and narrative mechanics that happen to work really well for a certain kind of action hero fantasy story--if you use the full range and implication of the mechanics. (And of course, if your simulation and/or immersion preferences are strong enough, that is going to be extremely difficult to do. Nothing wrong with that, either; it just is. Of course, if your preferences are that strong, you probably lack the sensibility to make full use of 4E in the way that it is intended, and are thus limited in your insight. This is bound to affect your ability to make a fair critique of it--like asking a traditional Country and Western music fan to give a fair critique of Heavy Metal.)</p><p> </p><p>Try to emulate Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser in a version of D&D, fairly, using the mechanics as listed. Let's pick "The Seven Black Priests" since it has an exploration build up scene, followed by an extended fight with some stalking and clever use of the environment. The "twain" are fairly experienced by now, so this is a more fair adventure to the early D&D versions than some others I could pick:</p><p> </p><p>Basic/Expert or RC or similar: A good DM will pull this off, as long as the luck doesn't turn too sour. The twain are trying everything in their power to shift the fight to their favor, and a good DM will roll with that and not get too picky on what can be done. Still, in a fight this long, the luck will likely turn sour at some critical point, and either TPK or fudging will occur. Alternately, the foes aren't as tough as they appear, to avoid that problem.</p><p> </p><p>AD&D - 1E style: Similar to RC, but tighter margins. The key problem here is that the foes will pull out some magic that really messes up the day, and the luck of saving throws will determine how things go.</p><p> </p><p>AD&D - 2E style: In "storyteller" mode, this will work as well as anything else, because the DM is already half ignoring the mechanics to keep things moving. Of course, anyone dedicated enough to that style to make this adventure work isn't going to run this adventure in the first place. Or if they try, they will fudge like mad to make it seem "difficult" and replace a bunch of things. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p><p> </p><p>3E/3.5: This is a pretty good spot for 3E versions, as we are probably talking around 7th to 9th level here--maybe a bit higher. Lack of skills will mean the twain would not have reached this adventure in the first place, but you can get around that by hand-waving it. The crucial problem here is the ebb and flow of the running battle. In 3E, it will either turn into a slug-fest (Fafhrd takes multiple attacks by not moving) or the twain gets an early edge and slaughters the priest in two or three rounds (no doubt thanks to some magic item the Mouser activates with Use Magic Device).</p><p> </p><p>4E: The battle is extended, with ebb and flow, fighting on skis seems perfectly normal, the protagonists have a decent variety of skill checks that are reasonable to attempt in creative ways, a good DM is remembering page 42. There is time and even reason for the characters to make running commentary (if you like that, even though not much of it in the scene as written by Leiber). The characters are fully capable of getting to the adventure, skulking around during it, dealing with the aftermath, and then leaving, without any handwaving.</p><p> </p><p>This is an example that is highly generous to the earlier versions. The real key is that in 4E, <strong>you could have played those kind of characters from level 1 up, and it would have still worked</strong>. In RC/AD&D you might have been able to do that if you wanted to go through several character deaths before finally getting lucky (which is a kind of fun I appreciate at times, mind).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Crazy Jerome, post: 5837916, member: 54877"] If that was all 4E is, they wouldn't. However, 4E is a strong blend of gamist and narrative mechanics that happen to work really well for a certain kind of action hero fantasy story--if you use the full range and implication of the mechanics. (And of course, if your simulation and/or immersion preferences are strong enough, that is going to be extremely difficult to do. Nothing wrong with that, either; it just is. Of course, if your preferences are that strong, you probably lack the sensibility to make full use of 4E in the way that it is intended, and are thus limited in your insight. This is bound to affect your ability to make a fair critique of it--like asking a traditional Country and Western music fan to give a fair critique of Heavy Metal.) Try to emulate Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser in a version of D&D, fairly, using the mechanics as listed. Let's pick "The Seven Black Priests" since it has an exploration build up scene, followed by an extended fight with some stalking and clever use of the environment. The "twain" are fairly experienced by now, so this is a more fair adventure to the early D&D versions than some others I could pick: Basic/Expert or RC or similar: A good DM will pull this off, as long as the luck doesn't turn too sour. The twain are trying everything in their power to shift the fight to their favor, and a good DM will roll with that and not get too picky on what can be done. Still, in a fight this long, the luck will likely turn sour at some critical point, and either TPK or fudging will occur. Alternately, the foes aren't as tough as they appear, to avoid that problem. AD&D - 1E style: Similar to RC, but tighter margins. The key problem here is that the foes will pull out some magic that really messes up the day, and the luck of saving throws will determine how things go. AD&D - 2E style: In "storyteller" mode, this will work as well as anything else, because the DM is already half ignoring the mechanics to keep things moving. Of course, anyone dedicated enough to that style to make this adventure work isn't going to run this adventure in the first place. Or if they try, they will fudge like mad to make it seem "difficult" and replace a bunch of things. :p 3E/3.5: This is a pretty good spot for 3E versions, as we are probably talking around 7th to 9th level here--maybe a bit higher. Lack of skills will mean the twain would not have reached this adventure in the first place, but you can get around that by hand-waving it. The crucial problem here is the ebb and flow of the running battle. In 3E, it will either turn into a slug-fest (Fafhrd takes multiple attacks by not moving) or the twain gets an early edge and slaughters the priest in two or three rounds (no doubt thanks to some magic item the Mouser activates with Use Magic Device). 4E: The battle is extended, with ebb and flow, fighting on skis seems perfectly normal, the protagonists have a decent variety of skill checks that are reasonable to attempt in creative ways, a good DM is remembering page 42. There is time and even reason for the characters to make running commentary (if you like that, even though not much of it in the scene as written by Leiber). The characters are fully capable of getting to the adventure, skulking around during it, dealing with the aftermath, and then leaving, without any handwaving. This is an example that is highly generous to the earlier versions. The real key is that in 4E, [B]you could have played those kind of characters from level 1 up, and it would have still worked[/B]. In RC/AD&D you might have been able to do that if you wanted to go through several character deaths before finally getting lucky (which is a kind of fun I appreciate at times, mind). [/QUOTE]
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