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L&L: The Challenges of High Level Play
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<blockquote data-quote="Upper_Krust" data-source="post: 5825354" data-attributes="member: 326"><p>Hey all! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Interesting topic raised by Monte but I think he is complicating what really just needs a simple resolution.</p><p></p><p>An epic tier needs:</p><p>- To support different options (like mass combat, running a country, becoming immortal, etc.)</p><p>- To have its own enemies that 'make sense' for that tier.</p><p></p><p>I explained all this in far greater detail six months ago.</p><p></p><p><a href="http://eternitypublishing.wordpress.com/2011/04/16/article-the-ten-commandments-of-epic/" target="_blank">Article: The Ten Commandments of Epic Eternity Publishing</a></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>3rd Edition aguably does mathmatically break down at a certain point. 4th Edition doesn't break down, although the dynamic changes (the PCs approximately double in power at the epic tier while the monsters stagnate). Once a DM understands this change they can accomodate for it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Actually I disagree that player influence and the potential foes make a lot of sense at the epic tier.</p><p></p><p>Firstly, player influence hasn't really been part of the system since BECMI. Running a stronghold, running a country, leading an army, becoming immortal. All of those things have been systematically stripped from the last few editions of the game. What remains is dungeon crawling. Therefore the tiers just mean the same thing with higher math for the epic tier.</p><p></p><p>Secondly, the majority of the potential foes you fight in the epic tier are the same darn foes you fought the previous two tiers. But the worst thing about the epic tier is that far too many monsters were shoehorned into higher tiers to 'pad it out'. What this does is completely undermine any identity for that tier.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>You have just described two dungeon crawl scenaros for different tiers.</p><p></p><p>Different levels of play need to have distinct options of play. Epic tier groups may still want to do some 'dungeon crawling' but the game also needs to accomodate mass combat, running a country, becoming a deity etc.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Its fine, except when those self-same people are WotC Designers responsible for epic tier material.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The latter hasn't been recognised by the official rules for about 30 years.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Seems straightforward.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If the higher tiers deliver a different playing experience then gamers won't mind a bit more complexity. Its when the game is fundamentally the same dungeon crawl at Level 30 as it was at Level 1 that people are disillusioned by the same thing with more math.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Upper_Krust, post: 5825354, member: 326"] Hey all! :) Interesting topic raised by Monte but I think he is complicating what really just needs a simple resolution. An epic tier needs: - To support different options (like mass combat, running a country, becoming immortal, etc.) - To have its own enemies that 'make sense' for that tier. I explained all this in far greater detail six months ago. [url=http://eternitypublishing.wordpress.com/2011/04/16/article-the-ten-commandments-of-epic/]Article: The Ten Commandments of Epic Eternity Publishing[/url] 3rd Edition aguably does mathmatically break down at a certain point. 4th Edition doesn't break down, although the dynamic changes (the PCs approximately double in power at the epic tier while the monsters stagnate). Once a DM understands this change they can accomodate for it. Actually I disagree that player influence and the potential foes make a lot of sense at the epic tier. Firstly, player influence hasn't really been part of the system since BECMI. Running a stronghold, running a country, leading an army, becoming immortal. All of those things have been systematically stripped from the last few editions of the game. What remains is dungeon crawling. Therefore the tiers just mean the same thing with higher math for the epic tier. Secondly, the majority of the potential foes you fight in the epic tier are the same darn foes you fought the previous two tiers. But the worst thing about the epic tier is that far too many monsters were shoehorned into higher tiers to 'pad it out'. What this does is completely undermine any identity for that tier. You have just described two dungeon crawl scenaros for different tiers. Different levels of play need to have distinct options of play. Epic tier groups may still want to do some 'dungeon crawling' but the game also needs to accomodate mass combat, running a country, becoming a deity etc. Its fine, except when those self-same people are WotC Designers responsible for epic tier material. The latter hasn't been recognised by the official rules for about 30 years. Seems straightforward. If the higher tiers deliver a different playing experience then gamers won't mind a bit more complexity. Its when the game is fundamentally the same dungeon crawl at Level 30 as it was at Level 1 that people are disillusioned by the same thing with more math. [/QUOTE]
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