Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
last encounter was totally one-sided
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6969126" data-attributes="member: 5834"><p>No. You have what you believe and are making arrogant, asinine assumptions about those that disagree with you.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And yet the game designers don't design adventures with this in mind. So are your base assumptions true and the adventure designers wrong or vice versa? You know none of the modules I've played written by WotC follow your baseline. You know that, right? Y How many times does this have to be repeated before you admit that the game designers themselves are not following the baseline expectations you claim the game assumes? Yet if the module designers aren't following these base expectations, then why are you expecting DMs to do it? Can you explain this given your obviously much higher intelligence than the OP and others you claim aren't "very smart."</p><p></p><p>You're not struggling to find a reason. You're just not paying attention to the modules being produced by the company you claim follows a certain baseline.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't care what you think was a good choice. It isn't what WotC is following when they make their adventures. More to the point, it doesn't match their capabilities at higher level, provably so. </p><p></p><p>The monsters are lacking because they are lacking. It is not a debate, but a provable fact. A party of adventures designed using the baseline you claim the game follows (which it doesn't) have far more options to crush creatures than the creatures have to crush them. I could design a base party using the base rules and easily defeat a balor or marilith. They are very weak.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>How did the marilith take better advantage of terrain than your players? How did their teleport help them? It takes an action and eliminates their ability to attack. Did they seriously not scout ahead or use missile fire which utterly defeats a marilith? Did you realize their parry doesn't work against missile weapons? Did your players play dumb and wander up to melee it? Perhaps your players aren't good at tactics or building characters? Might that be a reason your players had a hard time? It could be. Whereas tactically intelligent players that build ranged monsters may just rip your encounters apart? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I am a returning player. My entire group is comprised of returning players. None of us are happy with the game system and its lack of options and its weak monsters. So 5E not exactly doing the job for some of us returning players. Does that mean it's not working as intended? Only sales and longevity will determine that from a business perspective. Personally, if I can't make it work, I'll have to do something else.</p><p></p><p>Is that not what some of us are trying to do? Find a way to make it work for our play-style. I think that is the point of the discussion. To point out that 5E out of the box isn't well-designed for experienced, tactically oriented optimizers. It has weak points in monster and adventure design that make it too easy a game. We are pointing out the specific problems. What custom options are a problem, what spells, what class options, and the like. </p><p></p><p>I'm sorry if you can't see the problems with mariliths and balors. I've run them as well against optimized and normal (mean rules as intended) parties, both times it got smoked. My parties tend to control terrain. Only if I do something like <strong>Flamestrike</strong> did where I make the environment something they can't alter due to power levels outside their control can I change this. The first game we played we had some challenges. As soon as the group found out Smiting and Ranged attacks were number one for offense, every single party they make now is comprised of those types of characters with a bard and some kind of healer support. 5E monsters can't handle optimized parties any better than 3E. So heavy modification is required.</p><p></p><p>These threads tend to have a bunch of folks like you thinking we're saying, "5E so bad." While someone like you says, "5E is not bad. You're just dumb." When what's really being discussed is, "What are the optimization options in 5E. How do they affect the game. How do we get them under control. How do we design monsters and challenges for optimized parties because like 3E, 5E can't handle optimizers very well."</p><p></p><p>Regardless of what you think, folks like myself and <strong>CapnZapp</strong> are sharp folks. We play with the math until we get what we want. We've been playing these games for a long time. We've modified probably every edition we've played to suit what we want done. We'll find a way with 5E or move to a different game. D&D won't care one iota if we can't make their game work. They'll sell to those that enjoy it and accept the loss of customers. Just like they've always done.</p><p></p><p>One thing's for sure, I wish the module designers were using the vision you outlined for this game. It might actually make their modules challenging. You may be able to make claims about, "We're not doing it as intended. You're dumb" to back up your viewpoint, but it sure seems like BS when the modules designed and sold by the game company don't follow the game's vision at all. I do expect to have a challenging module if I pay money for it. If 6 to 8 encounters per day is how that is done, I sure wish the WotC module designers would follow the rules they expect us to follow for adventure design to make it challenging. As of right now, their adventures are not challenging. They rarely use the 6 to 8 encounters per day. In fact, I've experience of an overabundance of reliance on one or two encounters per day. Why? Because 6 to 8 encounters a day doesn't make for a very interesting story, especially if they try to shoehorn it into every single scenario. So may be relying on six to eight encounters a day doesn't a very smart design decision to begin with.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celtavian, post: 6969126, member: 5834"] No. You have what you believe and are making arrogant, asinine assumptions about those that disagree with you. And yet the game designers don't design adventures with this in mind. So are your base assumptions true and the adventure designers wrong or vice versa? You know none of the modules I've played written by WotC follow your baseline. You know that, right? Y How many times does this have to be repeated before you admit that the game designers themselves are not following the baseline expectations you claim the game assumes? Yet if the module designers aren't following these base expectations, then why are you expecting DMs to do it? Can you explain this given your obviously much higher intelligence than the OP and others you claim aren't "very smart." You're not struggling to find a reason. You're just not paying attention to the modules being produced by the company you claim follows a certain baseline. I don't care what you think was a good choice. It isn't what WotC is following when they make their adventures. More to the point, it doesn't match their capabilities at higher level, provably so. The monsters are lacking because they are lacking. It is not a debate, but a provable fact. A party of adventures designed using the baseline you claim the game follows (which it doesn't) have far more options to crush creatures than the creatures have to crush them. I could design a base party using the base rules and easily defeat a balor or marilith. They are very weak. How did the marilith take better advantage of terrain than your players? How did their teleport help them? It takes an action and eliminates their ability to attack. Did they seriously not scout ahead or use missile fire which utterly defeats a marilith? Did you realize their parry doesn't work against missile weapons? Did your players play dumb and wander up to melee it? Perhaps your players aren't good at tactics or building characters? Might that be a reason your players had a hard time? It could be. Whereas tactically intelligent players that build ranged monsters may just rip your encounters apart? I am a returning player. My entire group is comprised of returning players. None of us are happy with the game system and its lack of options and its weak monsters. So 5E not exactly doing the job for some of us returning players. Does that mean it's not working as intended? Only sales and longevity will determine that from a business perspective. Personally, if I can't make it work, I'll have to do something else. Is that not what some of us are trying to do? Find a way to make it work for our play-style. I think that is the point of the discussion. To point out that 5E out of the box isn't well-designed for experienced, tactically oriented optimizers. It has weak points in monster and adventure design that make it too easy a game. We are pointing out the specific problems. What custom options are a problem, what spells, what class options, and the like. I'm sorry if you can't see the problems with mariliths and balors. I've run them as well against optimized and normal (mean rules as intended) parties, both times it got smoked. My parties tend to control terrain. Only if I do something like [b]Flamestrike[/b] did where I make the environment something they can't alter due to power levels outside their control can I change this. The first game we played we had some challenges. As soon as the group found out Smiting and Ranged attacks were number one for offense, every single party they make now is comprised of those types of characters with a bard and some kind of healer support. 5E monsters can't handle optimized parties any better than 3E. So heavy modification is required. These threads tend to have a bunch of folks like you thinking we're saying, "5E so bad." While someone like you says, "5E is not bad. You're just dumb." When what's really being discussed is, "What are the optimization options in 5E. How do they affect the game. How do we get them under control. How do we design monsters and challenges for optimized parties because like 3E, 5E can't handle optimizers very well." Regardless of what you think, folks like myself and [b]CapnZapp[/b] are sharp folks. We play with the math until we get what we want. We've been playing these games for a long time. We've modified probably every edition we've played to suit what we want done. We'll find a way with 5E or move to a different game. D&D won't care one iota if we can't make their game work. They'll sell to those that enjoy it and accept the loss of customers. Just like they've always done. One thing's for sure, I wish the module designers were using the vision you outlined for this game. It might actually make their modules challenging. You may be able to make claims about, "We're not doing it as intended. You're dumb" to back up your viewpoint, but it sure seems like BS when the modules designed and sold by the game company don't follow the game's vision at all. I do expect to have a challenging module if I pay money for it. If 6 to 8 encounters per day is how that is done, I sure wish the WotC module designers would follow the rules they expect us to follow for adventure design to make it challenging. As of right now, their adventures are not challenging. They rarely use the 6 to 8 encounters per day. In fact, I've experience of an overabundance of reliance on one or two encounters per day. Why? Because 6 to 8 encounters a day doesn't make for a very interesting story, especially if they try to shoehorn it into every single scenario. So may be relying on six to eight encounters a day doesn't a very smart design decision to begin with. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
last encounter was totally one-sided
Top