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<blockquote data-quote="Magil" data-source="post: 7700777" data-attributes="member: 6672353"><p>I feel as though the number of dice needs to scale better, or be set on a different "refresh" rate than short rest-based, as the current small number of dice you get strongly stifles the flexibility you can have. I find myself gravitating towards a very short list of maneuvers because there's simply -not enough dice- to waste them on very situationally useful effects. That'd be a start.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>By "quasi-improved" I'm kinda poking fun at people who say "the fighter can do all of that, you just need to improvise your actions, I prefer that to powers system!" See, for me, it's not enough that the fighter -can- do it--they need to be better at it, because they are supposed to be the best at fighting. And it must be in the rules, if you have to make it up on your own, it's not a part of the class, it's something everyone can do, and therefore utterly irrelevant to the discussion.</p><p></p><p>I'd prefer a long laundry list of pre-packaged maneuvers, yes. If the 4E analogy doesn't work for you, how about the Tome of Battle? Good supplement. Would a "warblade" subclass for the fighter be too hard to do? But again, that kind of thing is an "ideal" situation for me. I'd vastly prefer it to the current, "broad" (aka actually very limited) implementation. I almost regret the optional DMG rules because it seems to me like those kinds of things could be things the fighter should be better at than others, like Cleaving, climbing on larger monsters, etc., but it's hard to really approach them now that they're strictly optional rules found in the DMG. </p><p></p><p>...Except if done via a spell list, because nobody has a problem if it's a <em>spell</em> that breaks the rules. Seriously, Tome of Battle again comes to mind.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Let's say, for example, you want to make a fighter that specializes in grappling. There's honestly not much there in the fighter package. The Grappler feat is garbage, and Tavern Brawler is okay-ish at best (fun, but mechanically doesn't have enough going for it). </p><p></p><p>The fighter class has almost no tools for this. If you want to be a grappler in this edition, you're better off with the barbarian package, or rogue... or bard! That I don't get.</p><p></p><p>What if we stuck passive benefits onto some maneuvers too? For example, a maneuver that allowed you to double your proficiency bonus to the Athletics check made to grapple/perform combat stunts as a passive benefit, but also allowed you to actively add a superiority die to the check? Just an example off the top of my head, it'd also be a huge help for "improvised", outside-the-rules options that involved Strength (Athletics) checks. A maneuver that allowed you to attack defensively and add superiority dice to AC/str-dex saves for a turn would be sweet. How about improving that piss-poor maneuver that increases your reach for an attack by adding on an effect where it pulled the enemy 5 feet towards you if you hit? </p><p></p><p>I don't want to fill up the page with suggestions, and again, personally? Yes, I want that long, "narrow" list of exploits/maneuvers/whatever. I want a 4E-style power list, or the Tome of Battle blade magic spell list. I want the fighter to have the <strong>option</strong> of being (almost) as varied and versatile as a spell caster, but in a different area. Not saying delete the champion. If we can't have that though, at least help out the poor battle master. It has serious issues (limited scope of maneuvers combined with far too few dice leads to very limited options). I'm simply never going to spend dice on allowing an ally to move a bit or as a bonus to AC against opportunity attacks when it means giving up the opportunity to Riposte/Precision Strike/Trip Attack, not when I'm getting less than half a dozen dice every ~2 encounters. And by that I mean the situations in which I'd do so are so narrow I'm never going to pick those maneuvers to add to my very short list.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Magil, post: 7700777, member: 6672353"] I feel as though the number of dice needs to scale better, or be set on a different "refresh" rate than short rest-based, as the current small number of dice you get strongly stifles the flexibility you can have. I find myself gravitating towards a very short list of maneuvers because there's simply -not enough dice- to waste them on very situationally useful effects. That'd be a start. By "quasi-improved" I'm kinda poking fun at people who say "the fighter can do all of that, you just need to improvise your actions, I prefer that to powers system!" See, for me, it's not enough that the fighter -can- do it--they need to be better at it, because they are supposed to be the best at fighting. And it must be in the rules, if you have to make it up on your own, it's not a part of the class, it's something everyone can do, and therefore utterly irrelevant to the discussion. I'd prefer a long laundry list of pre-packaged maneuvers, yes. If the 4E analogy doesn't work for you, how about the Tome of Battle? Good supplement. Would a "warblade" subclass for the fighter be too hard to do? But again, that kind of thing is an "ideal" situation for me. I'd vastly prefer it to the current, "broad" (aka actually very limited) implementation. I almost regret the optional DMG rules because it seems to me like those kinds of things could be things the fighter should be better at than others, like Cleaving, climbing on larger monsters, etc., but it's hard to really approach them now that they're strictly optional rules found in the DMG. ...Except if done via a spell list, because nobody has a problem if it's a [I]spell[/I] that breaks the rules. Seriously, Tome of Battle again comes to mind. Let's say, for example, you want to make a fighter that specializes in grappling. There's honestly not much there in the fighter package. The Grappler feat is garbage, and Tavern Brawler is okay-ish at best (fun, but mechanically doesn't have enough going for it). The fighter class has almost no tools for this. If you want to be a grappler in this edition, you're better off with the barbarian package, or rogue... or bard! That I don't get. What if we stuck passive benefits onto some maneuvers too? For example, a maneuver that allowed you to double your proficiency bonus to the Athletics check made to grapple/perform combat stunts as a passive benefit, but also allowed you to actively add a superiority die to the check? Just an example off the top of my head, it'd also be a huge help for "improvised", outside-the-rules options that involved Strength (Athletics) checks. A maneuver that allowed you to attack defensively and add superiority dice to AC/str-dex saves for a turn would be sweet. How about improving that piss-poor maneuver that increases your reach for an attack by adding on an effect where it pulled the enemy 5 feet towards you if you hit? I don't want to fill up the page with suggestions, and again, personally? Yes, I want that long, "narrow" list of exploits/maneuvers/whatever. I want a 4E-style power list, or the Tome of Battle blade magic spell list. I want the fighter to have the [B]option[/B] of being (almost) as varied and versatile as a spell caster, but in a different area. Not saying delete the champion. If we can't have that though, at least help out the poor battle master. It has serious issues (limited scope of maneuvers combined with far too few dice leads to very limited options). I'm simply never going to spend dice on allowing an ally to move a bit or as a bonus to AC against opportunity attacks when it means giving up the opportunity to Riposte/Precision Strike/Trip Attack, not when I'm getting less than half a dozen dice every ~2 encounters. And by that I mean the situations in which I'd do so are so narrow I'm never going to pick those maneuvers to add to my very short list. [/QUOTE]
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