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<blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 7700782" data-attributes="member: 48965"><p>Okay 6 encounters... with 2 short rests, let's assume 3-4 rounds of combat in each encounter... so 18-24 rounds of combat</p><p></p><p>level 3: 4 Superiority Dice/3 maneuvers... 2 rests means a total of 12 superiority dice... so in 18-24 rounds of combat you will be performing 12 maneuvers. That doesn't seem like a bad refresh, the worst is that you are using a maneuver on average...every other round, the worst is that you are using a maneuver 2/3rds of the time. What rate do you think would be better?</p><p></p><p>As for your second point... choosing a maneuver doesn't waste a die since you don't commit dice to maneuvers until you actually use them. Maneuvers grant versatility. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Hmmm... but depending on attribute scores, skills, prof w/certain weapons & armors, etc... everyone may not be able to do it, or at least not as well as you can. For example in most cases a 20 strength fighter is going to be able to pull off feats of strength that an eight strength fighter</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You didn't really answer my question though... what space are we looking to fill here? What things specifically are we trying to give the fighter that...</p><p></p><p>1. Are not covered by a current maneuver</p><p>2. Are not narrower or weaker than the current maneuvers</p><p>3. Are within the realm of doing martial things (as opposed to spells disguised as maneuvers since that's what the EK is for) </p><p></p><p>As for the optional rules in the DMG... I disagree. If the group wants that level of granularity in combat then it will be included... otherwise forcing it into the game just limits your audience since those who don't want it as part of the game will have a harder time removing it if it's core.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What "tools" are you looking for? What exactly in grappling (within the 5e rules for grappling) are you trying to accomplish? What tools do the barb, rogue and bard have that make them better grapplers? As long as you have a weapon in one hand all of the BM maneuvers are useful during a grapple and even without a weapon there are some that can be used... but I'd have to know more about what you can achieve from those other classes that you can't with the fighter first.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This seems at a glance, on top of the fighter's other abilities over powered... Only one is new design space and it gives the fighter a gigantic boost in the other pillars while letting him keep his already formidable combat prowess as well... The others just seem like better versions of what exists but then my question is at what point is it too good. Combat wise I have 2 BM's in my current game and nether one seems to need better abilities in combat.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Okay so at what point are we intruding on the niche of the monk as the "mystical warrior"? Or the EK which seems to be the fighter for those who want to do what magic does? It seems you want a different design ethos encapsulated by 3e and 4e moreso than 5e... a bunch of fiddly narrow options as opposed to fewer broad options... not sure I want to see 5e go down that path... at least not in core.</p><p></p><p>Again having the maneuver does not commit dice to it. I would definitely use my dice to move an ally or give myself a bonus to AC vs. OA in the right situation... The whole point is which maneuver is best is very dependent on the party makeup, situation, etc. So while you may not use those maneuvers others probably will.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Imaro, post: 7700782, member: 48965"] Okay 6 encounters... with 2 short rests, let's assume 3-4 rounds of combat in each encounter... so 18-24 rounds of combat level 3: 4 Superiority Dice/3 maneuvers... 2 rests means a total of 12 superiority dice... so in 18-24 rounds of combat you will be performing 12 maneuvers. That doesn't seem like a bad refresh, the worst is that you are using a maneuver on average...every other round, the worst is that you are using a maneuver 2/3rds of the time. What rate do you think would be better? As for your second point... choosing a maneuver doesn't waste a die since you don't commit dice to maneuvers until you actually use them. Maneuvers grant versatility. Hmmm... but depending on attribute scores, skills, prof w/certain weapons & armors, etc... everyone may not be able to do it, or at least not as well as you can. For example in most cases a 20 strength fighter is going to be able to pull off feats of strength that an eight strength fighter You didn't really answer my question though... what space are we looking to fill here? What things specifically are we trying to give the fighter that... 1. Are not covered by a current maneuver 2. Are not narrower or weaker than the current maneuvers 3. Are within the realm of doing martial things (as opposed to spells disguised as maneuvers since that's what the EK is for) As for the optional rules in the DMG... I disagree. If the group wants that level of granularity in combat then it will be included... otherwise forcing it into the game just limits your audience since those who don't want it as part of the game will have a harder time removing it if it's core. What "tools" are you looking for? What exactly in grappling (within the 5e rules for grappling) are you trying to accomplish? What tools do the barb, rogue and bard have that make them better grapplers? As long as you have a weapon in one hand all of the BM maneuvers are useful during a grapple and even without a weapon there are some that can be used... but I'd have to know more about what you can achieve from those other classes that you can't with the fighter first. This seems at a glance, on top of the fighter's other abilities over powered... Only one is new design space and it gives the fighter a gigantic boost in the other pillars while letting him keep his already formidable combat prowess as well... The others just seem like better versions of what exists but then my question is at what point is it too good. Combat wise I have 2 BM's in my current game and nether one seems to need better abilities in combat. Okay so at what point are we intruding on the niche of the monk as the "mystical warrior"? Or the EK which seems to be the fighter for those who want to do what magic does? It seems you want a different design ethos encapsulated by 3e and 4e moreso than 5e... a bunch of fiddly narrow options as opposed to fewer broad options... not sure I want to see 5e go down that path... at least not in core. Again having the maneuver does not commit dice to it. I would definitely use my dice to move an ally or give myself a bonus to AC vs. OA in the right situation... The whole point is which maneuver is best is very dependent on the party makeup, situation, etc. So while you may not use those maneuvers others probably will. [/QUOTE]
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