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<blockquote data-quote="Imaro" data-source="post: 7700802" data-attributes="member: 48965"><p>See I disagree with you already... Menacing Attack...Frightened condition (disadv on ability checks and attack rolls & controlled movement) to me is a much better choice than Riposte, but to each their own. </p><p></p><p>As for versatility... well yeah, maneuvers aren't spells they are martial techniques and thus centered around fighting... so no, they won't be as versatile as spells... luckily for those who want spells we have the EK. </p><p></p><p>Finally if you want more maneuvers then there's a feat for that and it ups your # of superiority dice as well.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Surprise... surprise I disagree again... they really aren't comparable IMO...</p><p></p><p>Booming Blade </p><p>1. Limit you to one attack as they are spells not melee attacks... Maneuvers don't limit the # of attacks or how many times you can use them if an attack hits in a round</p><p>2. BB does an extra 1d8 dmg if the target moves... Maneuvers do 1d8 damage (superiority dice) + an effect without requiring the target to move </p><p></p><p>Green-Flame Blade</p><p>1. See above</p><p>2. Does extra ability modifier to a creature within 5ft of the first creature you attacked with it... Really, how about you use that maneuver that ups your AC against OA and dish out multiple attacks on both targets for no cost with an extra 1d8 dmg on each + effect.</p><p></p><p>I'm sorry but I'm not seeing how these are comparable at all...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No it's not an outlier when using the standard array... characters will have dump stats that have an 8 (like strength for a wizard or a knowledge cleric) and they will (for the most part) maximize their primary abilities like (strength/dexterity for a fighter)...So my point still stands. You claiming this is an outlier does make me curious though... do you think most wizards spend ASI's increasing their strength... and moreso to the point where there's little difference between them and a fighter?? </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Okay on the one hand you complain that too many of the manuevers aren't generally applicable... but then you argue for a narrow maneuver that helps a specific action... color me confused. That's exactly why I'm asking about design space. It's easy to create a bunch of narrow specific maneuvers... but is anyone going to pick them over the one's already there? Especially with a limited number? If not then it's just bloat if you create them.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Fair enough I thought we were talking about the BM in core... and what you would have liked to have seen. My bad.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well first the Rogue would have to be proficient in Athletics... Then pick athletics as one of his finite expertise choices... his highest attribute is going Dex and second is probably Con so let's say 13 in strength for a +1... he's not going to waste his first 2 ASI's on strength, he's going Dex.. so at 8th level, assuming proficiency and a 13 in Strength he's got a +7</p><p></p><p>Meanwhile Fighter who has increased his Strength to 20 (+5) and has prof in Athletics has a +3 for a +8... o he's still ahead of the Rogue who spent a finite class ability to be a better grappler... </p><p></p><p>Now granted the Rogue could devote his first 2 ASI's and expertise and put his best ability score in strength... but at that point it's costing him so much that it's honestly not worth it... and even then he only outclasses the fighter by +3 and he's made himself a sub par rogue. I guess that could be worth it to someone... but talk about outliers.</p><p></p><p>I also don't understand why if you're bringing spells into it... you also aren't bringing maneuvers into it? You seem so focused on the ability check that you are ignoring the possibilities beyond that for a BM... especially since you can still attack 1-handed with a grapple. </p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p> The question isn't how much can they improve their athletics... it's how many of these resources are they spending to match or barely exceed the fighter's natural ability?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would say alot of the Battlemasters "power" comes from creative tactical usage of his maneuvers... If you're not using them strategically with the others in your party then you probably come off a little weak... on the other hand if you're maximizing them and coordinating well with your party... you can be a real powerhouse.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But we have a fighter who draws from the wizard list... the design space has been used and it's in the core for anyone to take... why do I want a(nother) fighter with spells... that aren't called spells?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Imaro, post: 7700802, member: 48965"] See I disagree with you already... Menacing Attack...Frightened condition (disadv on ability checks and attack rolls & controlled movement) to me is a much better choice than Riposte, but to each their own. As for versatility... well yeah, maneuvers aren't spells they are martial techniques and thus centered around fighting... so no, they won't be as versatile as spells... luckily for those who want spells we have the EK. Finally if you want more maneuvers then there's a feat for that and it ups your # of superiority dice as well. Surprise... surprise I disagree again... they really aren't comparable IMO... Booming Blade 1. Limit you to one attack as they are spells not melee attacks... Maneuvers don't limit the # of attacks or how many times you can use them if an attack hits in a round 2. BB does an extra 1d8 dmg if the target moves... Maneuvers do 1d8 damage (superiority dice) + an effect without requiring the target to move Green-Flame Blade 1. See above 2. Does extra ability modifier to a creature within 5ft of the first creature you attacked with it... Really, how about you use that maneuver that ups your AC against OA and dish out multiple attacks on both targets for no cost with an extra 1d8 dmg on each + effect. I'm sorry but I'm not seeing how these are comparable at all... No it's not an outlier when using the standard array... characters will have dump stats that have an 8 (like strength for a wizard or a knowledge cleric) and they will (for the most part) maximize their primary abilities like (strength/dexterity for a fighter)...So my point still stands. You claiming this is an outlier does make me curious though... do you think most wizards spend ASI's increasing their strength... and moreso to the point where there's little difference between them and a fighter?? Okay on the one hand you complain that too many of the manuevers aren't generally applicable... but then you argue for a narrow maneuver that helps a specific action... color me confused. That's exactly why I'm asking about design space. It's easy to create a bunch of narrow specific maneuvers... but is anyone going to pick them over the one's already there? Especially with a limited number? If not then it's just bloat if you create them. Fair enough I thought we were talking about the BM in core... and what you would have liked to have seen. My bad. Well first the Rogue would have to be proficient in Athletics... Then pick athletics as one of his finite expertise choices... his highest attribute is going Dex and second is probably Con so let's say 13 in strength for a +1... he's not going to waste his first 2 ASI's on strength, he's going Dex.. so at 8th level, assuming proficiency and a 13 in Strength he's got a +7 Meanwhile Fighter who has increased his Strength to 20 (+5) and has prof in Athletics has a +3 for a +8... o he's still ahead of the Rogue who spent a finite class ability to be a better grappler... Now granted the Rogue could devote his first 2 ASI's and expertise and put his best ability score in strength... but at that point it's costing him so much that it's honestly not worth it... and even then he only outclasses the fighter by +3 and he's made himself a sub par rogue. I guess that could be worth it to someone... but talk about outliers. I also don't understand why if you're bringing spells into it... you also aren't bringing maneuvers into it? You seem so focused on the ability check that you are ignoring the possibilities beyond that for a BM... especially since you can still attack 1-handed with a grapple. The question isn't how much can they improve their athletics... it's how many of these resources are they spending to match or barely exceed the fighter's natural ability? I would say alot of the Battlemasters "power" comes from creative tactical usage of his maneuvers... If you're not using them strategically with the others in your party then you probably come off a little weak... on the other hand if you're maximizing them and coordinating well with your party... you can be a real powerhouse. But we have a fighter who draws from the wizard list... the design space has been used and it's in the core for anyone to take... why do I want a(nother) fighter with spells... that aren't called spells? [/QUOTE]
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