Latest version of combat & movement

[BlackJaw]

I need feedback now before I continue.
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Terms:
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Vessel: any craft, creature, or effect that can be attacked, or make attacks in air or space combat. This includes a paladin mounted on a flying horse, a dragon, or 5 adventurers in a deep-space scout ship.
Passenger: a character on a vessel, such a character inside a ship, or riding on a dragon’s back.
Note that some monsters, like a dragon, are effectively their own passengers. Also, some vessels may be “alive,” like a giant animated corpse a lich might use for a ship, and therefore can be their own passengers for some purposes.
Pilot: A passenger with control over a vessel’s movement. This is one of the most important roles on a vessel.
Vessel Dex: used for vessel ranged attacks, and part of a vessel’s handling modifier.
Vessel Str: used for determining how strong a vessel is for purposes of breaking moorings, tractor beams etc, and also for any vessel melee attacks.
Engineering modifier: how hard is it to fix, repair, or keep the vessel running. Used for Fortitude checks and engineering checks.
Handling modifier: how hard is it to fly the vessel. Used for stunts and reflex saves.
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Vessel Combat Basics:
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I’ll try to explain this using the format from page 117 of the player’s handbook. I intend to latter add an example of combat in front of this section much as how the combat chapter of the Players handbook introduces the combat mechanic.

Rounds: Vessel combat uses the same rounds as melee combat. They loosely represent 6 seconds or time.

Initiative:
Vessel combat still uses individual initiative. Each player gets to make their actions on their Initiative, regardless of which vessel they are on and weather or not that vessel’s pilot has had his turn yet. A vessel by itself does not have an initiative, but can be moved by a passenger on his initiative using piloting skill checks and rules.

Attacks:
Vessels do not make attacks on their own. Vessel weapons are only usable if being operated by a passenger. Attacks are made on that passenger’s initiative using that passenger’s abilities etc. Passengers can take both a move-equivalent action and an attack action in each round. Note that actual movement is only possible within a ship. A player manning a gun can not move the ship. Most players manning a gun chose the full attack action to get their full number of attacks. It is possible for a passenger to make attacks on their own, but only if they are on the outside of a vessel, such as a paladin mounted on the back of a flying horse, or archers standing on the deck of a flying galleon.

Attack roll:
There are basically four types of attacks possible in Vessel combat, attacks made using vessel weapons, both ranged and melee, and attacks made by hand held weapons of vessel passengers, both ranged and melee. The attack rolls are a bit different between the four.
Ranged Vessel Weapon Attack Roll: 1d20 + the PC’s bab + PC’s Dex modifier + Vessel’s size modifier + range penalty
Melee Vessel Weapon Attack Roll: 1d20 + the PC’s bab + Vessel’s STR modifier + Vessel’s size modifier
Ranged Passenger Weapon Attack Roll: 1d20 + the PC’s bab + PC’s Dex modifier + PC’s size modifier + range penalty (standard d20 rules)
Melee Passenger Weapon Attack Roll: 1d20 + the PC’s bab + PC’s STR modifier + PC’s size modifier (standard d20 rules)


Damage:
If you make a hit against an enemy Vessel, roll for damage according to the weapon used. Ranged Vessel Weapons gain no damage modifier from the Str or Dex or the ship. Ranged Vessel Attacks also don’t gain damage modifiers from the passenger’s Str and Dex abilities. Vessel Melee attacks gains a strength bonus from the ship’s strength not the passenger’s strength. Attacks made by passengers inflict damage normally (thrown weapons and melee attacks gain a strength bonus to damage from the character, ranged attacks suffer strength penalties but not bonuses, two handed, off hand, etc)

Armor Class:
A vessel’s armor class works normally; attacks directed at the vessel must overcome the vessel’s armor class to score a hit. Note that the size modifier is different depending on the respective scales. Vessels use a size system that is different from the standard system found in the player’s handbook. After all, a Medium Vessel is not the same size as a Medium Character.
This does make the system slightly more complex. Depending on what you are being attacked with, everything needs two size modifiers. One on the vessel scale, incase you are attacked by a vessel weapon, and one on a standard scale, for when you are attacked by another “normal” creature. These scales do have maximum and minimum bonus and penalties. From the behind the guns of a Gunship100 yards off, a troll is as hard to hit as a squirrel, and when trying to hit a ship with an axe, sizes above standard colossal are not needed.
A Vessel’s AC: 10 + armor bonus + vessel size modifier + (not sure here) Dodge bonus/penalty from ship Dex.

Hit Points:
Vessels have hit points which represents how much damage the vessel can take and still operate.

Attack Options:
A Passenger manning a ship weapon basically has two options:
Attack & Move-equivalent action: Passengers can not move the ship unless they are the pilot, but they can take other move equivalent actions and combine this with a single attack. This would include firing the weapon once, and then moving away from the gun, or using a scanner system to target a tracking weapon before launching it.
Full Attack: Some passengers can make multiple attacks in a round, using the full attack option at a vessel weapon they can fire their full number of times, assuming the weapon can operate that often.

Pilot Options:
The pilot is a special passenger that actually has control of the vessel. Some larger vessels may have many pilot stations, but only one passenger is actually a pilot, while the others are considered co-pilots and only have the ability to help his skill checks using standard skill check rules. The general activity of piloting is a move-equivalent action, so the pilot can also do something else while piloting a vessel. Most commonly a vessel is built with a weapon system integrated into the controls, so the pilot can use his movement action to fly the craft, and then use his standard action to make a single attack. A pilot can also take a double-move action to allow for better control of the vessel although this doesn’t make the craft fly any faster or farther. If a vessel can hover on its own, like a zeppelin, or a space-craft in 0-g, then the pilot could also take no movement actions and instead take a full attack option. During such a round, the ship hovers where it is.
Stunts: each move-equivalent action a pilot takes at the helm also allows him to make 1 stunt. That means during a double-move action, he can make two stunts. Stunts can be used at any time during the movement, but require a Pilot skill check. Stunts are the only way some vessels are able to turn at all.

Spells:
Spellcasting passengers can make use of their spells while on ships and in vessel combat, although they are logically limited. Many spells require a clean path between the caster and the target, and that is not possible inside a ship. Some ships are designed to handle this problem with special equipment, while some spellcasters actually cast from on deck, or outside an airlock. Ranges in space often push the limits of a spellcaster’s power. Spellcasting on a ship maneuvering in Vessel combat does require concentration checks.

Saving Throws:
A vessel’s saving throws are based on a combination of the ship and passenger’s stats.
Fortitude Saves: based strictly on the ship’s Engineering modifier. Most ships are well built and have large modifiers.
Reflex Saves: A ship’s reflex save is based on the pilot’s base reflex save, modified by the ship’s handling modifier.
Vessels generally don’t have Will saving throws, but their pilots often do, and depending on the effect/spell, sometimes an entire crew will need to make a save.

Movement:
Vessels do not move as easily as people walking on the ground, and require special rules to handle maneuvering.

Vessels have a concept of facing. Unlike standard melee combat, vessels can only point in one direction, and require special effort to change this facing. Facing limits a vessel to specific firing-arcs and maneuverability options. A facing in this system is broken down into 45 degree points; or forward, sides, back, and corners. Weapons on a vessel must be facing front, side, or rear, and cover a 90 degree firing arc. Those weapons can only make attacks in that area. Obviously, a pilot can not operate a weapon unless it faces forward.

Vessels have a maximum speed, which represents the vessel’s stop speed in combat. This speed is used normally, and the pilot can move this speed using a single move-equivalent action. If the pilot takes a double-move action, he still can not move more then this speed.

Vessels also have a minimum speed, which represents the need for most vessels to stay in motion in order to stay in the air. A vessel with a minimum speed requires the pilot to use at least a single move-equivalent action in order to move the craft this distance each round. Vessels in zero gravity environments like space do not have this issue to deal with, and some air vessels can hover which gives them an effective minimum speed of 0.

A vessel also has a maneuverability ratting. The ratings use the same terms as those found on page 69 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide, but use a much different system for their effects.
Clumsy Flier: can make use of simple slides (diagonal movement with-out changing facing) but otherwise flies forward. During the one stunt per movement action the Hard Turn stunt can be used to change face and effectively turn.
Poor Flier: can make use of simple slides, and one 45o turn per movement action. Other turns can be made using the single stunt allowed per movement action.
Average Fliers: can slide, and make 45o turns. That’s one 45o turn per square.
Good fliers: can slide and make 90o turns per square.
Perfect fliers: can slide and make 180o turns per square. This is supposed to be UFO like flight after all.

Attacks of Opportunity:
Vessel combat largely ignores attacks of opportunity with one exception; when a vessel attempts to pass through another vessel’s space. Doing so provokes an attack of opportunity from any vessel weapons on the side facing the approach. The attacks of opportunity can only be made if the passengers manning those vessel weapons have any remaining attacks of opportunity. This most often happens during a dive attack or a ramming attacking.

Vessel Damage, Destruction, and Repairs:
A vessel’s hit points represent how much damage it can take and still remain functioning.
0 Hit points: the vessel loses power and control. For most vessels this means a real danger of crashing. Systems that require no power remain functional (such as sails and blimps).
-1 or less Hit points: All systems become non-functional. This includes sails being ripped, and zeppelins suffering a dangerous leak/hole.
-50% hitpoints: when a vessel takes damage to the point that is has negative hitpoints equal to half its hitpoints, it is considered destroyed beyond repair.

Vessels, with a few exceptions, are immune to both positive and negative energy, and therefore can not be healed or damaged in that fashion. For a vessel to regain hitpoints, it generally needs to be repaired, either through special spells, or actually use of the proper skill or skills.

Scale:
When you use miniatures and grids maps for vessel combat, the recommended size is actually 30’ = inch. This is a much larger scale then normal d20 systems, but it the most compatible with current monsters and spell effects while still providing a larger size needed for vessel combat. Like d20, a battlemat should use a grid, not a hexagon. This is more compatible with current rules.

 

[Wyvern]

RE: Combat Basics

Sorry I've been so slow in responding; the last couple of days have been really crazy. Anyhow, I like it a lot! It's well-organized, thorough, and overall good stuff. A few quibbles though, which I'll get to in a moment. I like the co-pilot rule; I would never have thought of that myself. What kind of rule do you have in mind for double-moves by the pilot?

On to the quibbles:

1) I'm not sure I like the idea ranged vessel weapons benefiting from the gunner's Dex. I can definitely see a case being made for this if you're talking about the guns on the Millennium Falcon, but it just doesn't make much sense for a cannon. This is probably better covered under the description of individual weapons, but I think that some weapons should use either the gunner's Wis bonus or a fixed bonus inherent in the weapon instead of Dex. Of course, some vessel weapons wouldn't need a gunner at all, being targeted and fired automatically.

2) Under damage, you should make some mention of the rules regarding diminished damage to objects from personal ranged weapons and energy attacks. Or are you planning to throw those out and have all vessels take normal damage from all attacks?

3) I'm not sure if min/max size modifiers to AC are needed. First of all, assuming you're using the vessel size scale I defined, the troll vs. squirrel example isn't strictly true -- a troll would be considered "Diminutive" with a +4 to AC while a squirrel would be "Fine" and get a +8. That point aside, it may be just as hard to hit a dwarf as a squirrel with a cannon, but what if you have a laser gun with an advanced targeting computer? Perhaps this type of component would be a special case that allows you to use the personal size scale instead of the vehicle size scale. What do you think?

On the other end of the scale, it may be just as easy to hit an 80-ft wide object as a 150-ft wide one when you're using an ax, but if you're shooting at them with a crossbow from 300 ft off, there *is* a difference, and the rules should reflect that (as they do, if you're using the vessel size scale).

4) You said you're not sure whether a vessel's Dex should affect its AC. I think this definitely makes sense; a flying barge would be much easier to hit than a fighter plane the same size.

5) Instead of hovering where they are, many vessels would simply move ahead in a straight line if unpiloted.

6) I don't get the connection between Engineering modifiers and Fortitude saves. Why would a sturdy ship be harder or easier to repair than a flimsy one? Also, is there a connection between handling modifier and maneuverability?

7) Since a pilot can use up to two stunts in a round, I think it would be a good idea to rule that clumsy fliers can only turn once in a round. I also think it makes more sense for turns to be "per move-equivalent action" than "per square". Otherwise a fast-moving vessel could turn more times in a round than a slow-moving one with the same maneuverability, which makes no sense.

8) Although I agree that a square grid should be the default, I think we ought to include optional rules for a hex-based grid. Using a movement-point system actually makes this easier, since instead of deciding how to convert 45-degree turns you can just say give movement-point costs for both 30-degree and 45-degree turns.

All these points aside, you're definitely off to a great start. Once you clear up the questions I raised, you should post this on the rules page like you did with my work.

Wyvern

 

[BlackJaw]

I'm not sure I like the idea ranged vessel weapons benefiting from the gunner's Dex. I can definitely see a case being made for this if you're talking about the guns on the Millennium Falcon, but it just doesn't make much sense for a cannon.

Yah, your right.

This is probably better covered under the description of individual weapons...

True, some weapons should allow the passenger's Dex bonus.

...but I think that some weapons should use either the gunner's Wis bonus...

Hold on here, when would the gun use Wis?

...or a fixed bonus inherent in the weapon instead of Dex.

Only as a modifier do to gun quality/type/etc. Some weapons are just more acurate etc. This might stack with a passenger's Dex if the weapon also allows Dex etc. Kinda like a Masterwork system or special materials system.

Of course, some vessel weapons wouldn't need a gunner at all, being targeted and fired automatically.

Only if you have a targeting system of some kind. Those systems would have a BAB, and an Intit modifier. In order to operate, a scanner operator has to designate a target an enemy to be shot at. EXAMPLE: Gorth is running a scanning console. He's already detected (spot/listen/search etc checks with the scanner system) 2 retro-fitted Trade ships approching. They are running silent with no transponder signals, a sign of pirate activity. Groth uses a move equivilent action to send the targeting information to the Targeting system. The targeting system is a good quality device. It has a BAB of +6/+1 so it can make two attacks. It is hooked into a Laser cannon that can fire 3 times a round, but because it only has a +6/+1 it can attack twice. When transfering targeting information to a system, you must designate which order. In this example, the first ship sent to the system will be attacked with +6, while the second ship sent to the system will be attacked at +1. The system will continue to target those crafts until target lock is lost (as in hiding, or destruction) or a sensor operator changes the auto-fire system. Essentialy an auto-fire system is a passenger that justs shoots at what some one else tells it to shoot at. In a fantasy system an autofire system might be a simple undead minion that can be commanded to run a gun or technological device in sci-fi settings. This isn't the best description I know.

Under damage, you should make some mention of the rules regarding diminished damage to objects from personal ranged weapons and energy attacks. Or are you planning to throw those out and have all vessels take normal damage from all attacks?

That depends on the vessel hull type. A standard vessel would be an object, and have those properties, but a tree-ship or undead ship, would be diffrent. That's a vessel feature. OR I might through them out saying that the vessel is like Construct and takes damage as such. Plus vessels will generaly have damage reduction and impressive armor, if not sheild systems, so this may not be needed. It's balence issue in that respect.

I'm not sure if min/max size modifiers to AC are needed. First of all, assuming you're using the vessel size scale I defined, the troll vs. squirrel example isn't strictly true -- a troll would be considered "Diminutive" with a +4 to AC while a squirrel would be "Fine" and get a +8.

Oops. Sorry. Your right.

That point aside, it may be just as hard to hit a dwarf as a squirrel with a cannon, but what if you have a laser gun with an advanced targeting computer? Perhaps this type of component would be a special case that allows you to use the personal size scale instead of the vehicle size scale. What do you think?

I figure that's a function of a scanner system and operator. If you can feed better targeting information to a gunner, then you can increase his attack accuracey. BUT this system doesn't seem "realistic" in a fantasy/magic system. It might be possible in a highly magical setup. Not sure how to work this without making it to complex. I might just make a simple system that gives an attack bonus if attached to a weapon instead of a more complex scanner / gunner interaction.

On the other end of the scale, it may be just as easy to hit an 80-ft wide object as a 150-ft wide one when you're using an ax, but if you're shooting at them with a crossbow from 300 ft off, there *is* a difference, and the rules should reflect that (as they do, if you're using the vessel size scale).

This is part of the problem I have with a "starwars" like system where both the bonuses and names slide. It requires two armor class systems. That's not so simple. It also requires I know what to do when a Dragon (which is both a vessel and a passenger) is attacked by an attack hellicopter and a paladin on a flying horse. I'm thinking about a new size system where the actual size modifier is the same, so the armor class number is the same. Just change the names. I'll explain in another post.

You said you're not sure whether a vessel's Dex should affect its AC. I think this definitely makes sense; a flying barge would be much easier to hit than a fighter plane the same size.

I'm worried about the way this effects combat. I may make some ships to easy to hit while others are to hard to hit. I know it makes sense. I need to do some play testing soon.

Instead of hovering where they are, many vessels would simply move ahead in a straight line if unpiloted.

Actualy most crafts go out of control if un-piloted. That's why auto-pilot systems were invented. Early ones were just mechanical locks that held the stick in place. You can't just leave the stick of a craft and expect it to fly forward. Most crafts, especialy modern ones like spacecrafts, have advanced electronic systems that can pilot the vessel. Call this auto-pilot. Even a hovering craft will need something to keep it from drifitng or losing control. Hellicopters are extreamly nasty in this respect. Hovering can be done, but hellicopters will not defualt to it. But all this aside, the concept of letting a craft move without anyone flying it will result in a more complex set of rules being needed for combat. I don't want a craft to be able to move if no one is flying it (unless an auto-pilot system is used.) That opens the system for a lot of abuse.

I don't get the connection between Engineering modifiers and Fortitude saves. Why would a sturdy ship be harder or easier to repair than a flimsy one?

I based the fortitude save on the concept of Con scores. The more I think about it the less I like it, But both Fort saves and an engineering modifier will be needed. I have some other ideas about this. What if Fort saves are made as a skill check by the "engineering" character. If there is no character working engineering, then it will be some sort of simple save. Simple as in some sort of basic modifier. Not sure how to determine that modifier yet, but oh well. This part needs work still.

Also, is there a connection between handling modifier and maneuverability?

No. some crafts maybe able to pull impressive manuvers but not be easy to fly. The opposite is also true. Maneuverability is what a Vessel can do with little effort. Doing more in the vessel requires a Stunt, which means a skill check, and that check may be hard or easy regardless of the maneuverablity class, although I might make it effect it. A Handling modifier may be determined through mathmatical system durring ship creations that could be affected by the final vessel's Maneuverability, but this is not the only thing to be calculated into it. This more or less goes in a ship constructions system.

Since a pilot can use up to two stunts in a round, I think it would be a good idea to rule that clumsy fliers can only turn once in a round. I also think it makes more sense for turns to be "per move-equivalent action" than "per square". Otherwise a fast-moving vessel could turn more times in a round than a slow-moving one with the same maneuverability, which makes no sense.

Good ideas. A number of turns per move-actions is a great idea. Thanks!

Although I agree that a square grid should be the default, I think we ought to include optional rules for a hex-based grid. Using a movement-point system actually makes this easier, since instead of deciding how to convert 45-degree turns you can just say give movement-point costs for both 30-degree and 45-degree turns.

Square systems are the standard. Hex grids would be nicer, and yes a point system is easier on a hex. Still I won't be even thinking about this optional concept untill we have a grid based system working. I'm still not sure I would point system hexagon. I think I'd just used hexagons with our current system. I don't think it would be very hard to work with that way actually.

 

[Wyvern]

Hold on here, when would the gun use Wis?

When aiming the weapon requires someone who's a good judge of distance and firing trajectories more than someone with steady hands. It's tenuous, I know; it was just a thought.

Only as a modifier do to gun quality/type/etc. Some weapons are just more acurate etc. This might stack with a passenger's Dex if the weapon also allows Dex etc. Kinda like a Masterwork system or special materials system.

I was thinking more along the lines of how the ship weapons worked in the War Captain's Companion for Spelljammer -- each type of weapon (e.g. heavy ballista, medium catapult, etc.) had its own THAC0 based on how easy it was to hit a target with it.

Only if you have a targeting system of some kind. Those systems would have a BAB, and an Intit modifier.

That's exactly the kind of thing I had in mind.

Actualy most crafts go out of control if un-piloted.

If you're talking about airplanes, that's generally true. If you're talking about a star destroyer, or a zeppelin, or a sky-galleon, it makes no sense that the ship would come to a dead stop if the pilot steps away from the controls. Not only that, but many kinds of airships (including planes) can't hover in place.

What you need instead is some kind of rule regarding what happens to an uncontrolled vessel - does it keep going in a straight line, drift off course, hover in place, or crash and burn? This would depend on both the type of propulsion system used and whether or not it was operating in zero-gravity. It also wouldn't have to be deterministic; you could have, say, a percentage chance per round of uncontrolled flight for a vessel to drift off course.

I based the fortitude save on the concept of Con scores. The more I think about it the less I like it, But both Fort saves and an engineering modifier will be needed. I have some other ideas about this. What if Fort saves are made as a skill check by the "engineering" character.

It makes more sense to me that the skill of the engeineering officer would come into play after the fact. I think for Fort saves you should stick to the base value dictated by the vessel's hit dice. If the vessel's construction is especially sturdy, make that a special quality that gives a bonus to Fortitude saves.

No. some crafts maybe able to pull impressive manuvers but not be easy to fly.
The opposite is also true.

That's exactly why I separated handling modifier from Dex in my stat block. Since your rules stated that the handling modifier is affected by Dex, it seemed to follow that it would be affected by maneuverability too, or vice versa. Personally, I think that Dex and maneuverability should be linked, but handling mod should be separate from both.

Wyvern

 

[BlackJaw]

When aiming the weapon requires someone who's a good judge of distance and firing trajectories more than someone with steady hands. It's tenuous, I know; it was just a thought.

but when would you use this? what weapons? how do you figure those weapons versus others that don't use it? what about closer ranges where this doesn't make sense?
Yah I know it makes sense in some cases... Just not sure how well to work it in. Besides, many ranged weapons in DnD could be said to need the same skill, but don't use Wis either. This is also un-needed if I use weapon accuracy scores like you said bellow.

I was thinking more along the lines of how the ship weapons worked in the War Captain's Companion for Spelljammer -- each type of weapon (e.g. heavy ballista, medium catapult, etc.) had its own THAC0 based on how easy it was to hit a target with it.

A weapon inherent bonus instead of the passenger's or vessel's dex score? Works for me.

If you're talking about airplanes, that's generally true. If you're talking about a star destroyer, or a zeppelin, or a sky-galleon, it makes no sense that the ship would come to a dead stop if the pilot steps away from the controls. Not only that, but many kinds of airships (including planes) can't hover in place.

What you need instead is some kind of rule regarding what happens to an uncontrolled vessel - does it keep going in a straight line, drift off course, hover in place, or crash and burn? This would depend on both the type of propulsion system used and whether or not it was operating in zero-gravity. It also wouldn't have to be deterministic; you could have, say, a percentage chance per round of uncontrolled flight for a vessel to drift off course.

For the record, a pilot has to stop his vessel in order to hover (or stop moving in space). Simply leaving the controls, being disabled, or not taking a move-equivalent action in a vessel unable to hover results in going out of control. "out of control" will be a type of vessel status (kinda like creature being panicked or stunned etc... there is that whole list in the DMG). I haven't defined this system yet because I have yet to come up with a good clean way to run this. A vessel can also go out of control if the pilot fails a piloting skill check (like during some stunts) I haven't defined this part of the system yet. Also note that a vessel even in Zero-G, can not maintain its exact position without some effort (gravity fields, movement on the ship resulting in equal but opposite reactions, etc... ) A vessel can only hover/remain motionless if pilot (or auto-pilot) is there to keep it stable. This doesn't mean you have to take move-equivalent action however. Still working on how to explain this.

It makes more sense to me that the skill of the engineering officer would come into play after the fact. I think for Fort saves you should stick to the base value dictated by the vessel's hit dice. If the vessel's construction is especially sturdy, make that a special quality that gives a bonus to Fortitude saves.

There I go trying to make vessels like separate monsters or creatures again. Your right, this way is simple and easy, and should work fine.

That's exactly why I separated handling modifier from Dex in my stat block. Since your rules stated that the handling modifier is affected by Dex, it seemed to follow that it would be affected by maneuverability too, or vice versa. Personally, I think that Dex and maneuverability should be linked, but handling mod should be separate from both.

ok. Handling has to do with the vessel's control system... that makes sense. Dex and maneuvering, which is has to do with what the vessel is able to do not how easy it is for the pilot to fly the craft, should be linked. Works for me.

 

[Will Stanton]

I like this system so far.

I definitely think that accuracy of a particular ship-mounted weapon should be controlled in the form of bonuses and/or penalties to attack rolls.

Only if you have a targeting system of some kind. Those systems would have a BAB, and an Intit modifier. In order to operate, a scanner operator has to designate a target an enemy to be shot at. EXAMPLE: Gorth is running a scanning console. He's already detected (spot/listen/search etc checks with the scanner system) 2 retro-fitted Trade ships approching. They are running silent with no transponder signals, a sign of pirate activity. Groth uses a move equivilent action to send the targeting information to the Targeting system. The targeting system is a good quality device. It has a BAB of +6/+1 so it can make two attacks. It is hooked into a Laser cannon that can fire 3 times a round, but because it only has a +6/+1 it can attack twice. When transfering targeting information to a system, you must designate which order. In this example, the first ship sent to the system will be attacked with +6, while the second ship sent to the system will be attacked at +1. The system will continue to target those crafts until target lock is lost (as in hiding, or destruction) or a sensor operator changes the auto-fire system. Essentialy an auto-fire system is a passenger that justs shoots at what some one else tells it to shoot at. In a fantasy system an autofire system might be a simple undead minion that can be commanded to run a gun or technological device in sci-fi settings. This isn't the best description I know.

So, a robot gunner, a targeting scanner, and an undead minion gunner would all have essentially the same effect, just with different bonuses and penalties? I like it.

Also, I think if a ship is out of control, weapons should still be able to be fired, just at the same severe penalty as if a character is affected by some nasty status ailment.