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<blockquote data-quote="Ratskinner" data-source="post: 6039044" data-attributes="member: 6688937"><p>I agree. Its given me pretty high standards for what I call a "Narrative game" anymore. Of course, the problem (if you're into this way of playing) with D&D is that it brings a great herd of mechanical sacred cows forward that make very hard to play that way.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>FATE (at least the latest version) has all that, too. It is certainly a different experience prepping to run a game like that. I think there is some entanglement here between player/DM control, and social-sphere game mechanics. Some of 3e's difficulties w.r.t. summoning and animal companions probably illustrate it quite nicely. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Definitely true. I've seen this the most often when someone wants to run "the evil campaign." Most people seem to not be that good at being the bad guy. Just about every such campaign I've ever seen quickly stalls soon after the PCs are done admiring their imaginary silver-and-black (possibly with purple accents) equipment. I can't tell you how many times I've witnessed desperate DMs conjuring up large criminal organizations just to issue orders to the PCs.* </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>2e definitely knew where it wanted to go, but it didn't know how to get there. To be fair, I don't think anybody did back in 1988. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure you can. I can (or could back in the day). The problem is that its pretty hard, and/or requires a very "on-top-of-it" DM. Certainly those were rare, if the constant complaining about bad DMs is any indication. Personally, I did it when I was in college and had plenty of mental time/effort to put into such things. I could rattle off all sorts of numbers regarding ACs and obscures rules and ruling. Nowadays, I'm quite confident that such mental overhead isn't worth my effort.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Two ways: </p><p>First and foremost, system mastery (although I hesitate to use the term). I didn't just read those rulebooks, I <em>studied</em> them. Once you had a deep enough knowledge of the various bits and pieces of the system, a sort of gestalt understanding could arise, and then you could use that to crank out things quickly. This was a lot "fuzzier" than 4e's, because of the way the system core worked. If you were to try and recreate it explicitly, as 4e does, there would be a great many conditional rules to it. </p><p></p><p>Secondly, what I called friendly DMing. There's a lot of advice in the 2e books for DMs. A good portion of it is pretty good. It is a rather fine line to walk, however. Personally, I was quite happy to let things roll. My goals, the things I wanted to show off, were not contrary to how the players wanted to go about things. I wasn't trying to pull off a "serious" story, and other DMs often teased me about my world (magic-heavy, over-the-top), but I figured if we were all having fun....who cared? The funny thing is, much like how a sit-com can evolve into a drama, my campaigns ended up achieving a very high reputation amongst my college crowd. </p><p></p><p>Now, I'm not sure exactly why that second part worked as well as it did, but I have a pretty good suspicion. I've tried lots of different games and game styles, and I've noticed a few things, but one of them is....Drama is very hard to do, even in games that develop that history as part of character creation. You need a very specific type of player who's willing to invest in the tension(s) and characters quickly. I haven't met many people like that.</p><p></p><p>Its much more effective to start with a simpler, sillier, game and work up to something that "matters." People invest much more readily and deeply into a character whose story they have experienced "firsthand." Characters need to start with plenty of blank spaces that get filled in later. This is yet another factor in my desire for fast-playing rules. The faster we can build up history, the faster folks will be genuinely invested in their characters. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>enh...I'm not sure I like players "confidently taking risks", it sounds a little too much like "astutely calculating odds" to me. How risky is it, if you're confident?<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> I too have high hopes for bounded accuracy. I don't think we've seen enough of the rest to know. </p><p></p><p>*I personally find it more interesting to try and play a toady or lieutenant in such games, but rarely find a worthy master. In the one game where I played a dominant evil character from the start, I horrified the rest of the players to a degree that the campaign ended. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/blush.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":blush:" title="Blush :blush:" data-shortname=":blush:" /> (Just as I had finally succeeded in attracting the attention of an order of Paladins and creating the hero who should've gone on to defeat me, more's the pity.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ratskinner, post: 6039044, member: 6688937"] I agree. Its given me pretty high standards for what I call a "Narrative game" anymore. Of course, the problem (if you're into this way of playing) with D&D is that it brings a great herd of mechanical sacred cows forward that make very hard to play that way. FATE (at least the latest version) has all that, too. It is certainly a different experience prepping to run a game like that. I think there is some entanglement here between player/DM control, and social-sphere game mechanics. Some of 3e's difficulties w.r.t. summoning and animal companions probably illustrate it quite nicely. Definitely true. I've seen this the most often when someone wants to run "the evil campaign." Most people seem to not be that good at being the bad guy. Just about every such campaign I've ever seen quickly stalls soon after the PCs are done admiring their imaginary silver-and-black (possibly with purple accents) equipment. I can't tell you how many times I've witnessed desperate DMs conjuring up large criminal organizations just to issue orders to the PCs.* 2e definitely knew where it wanted to go, but it didn't know how to get there. To be fair, I don't think anybody did back in 1988. Sure you can. I can (or could back in the day). The problem is that its pretty hard, and/or requires a very "on-top-of-it" DM. Certainly those were rare, if the constant complaining about bad DMs is any indication. Personally, I did it when I was in college and had plenty of mental time/effort to put into such things. I could rattle off all sorts of numbers regarding ACs and obscures rules and ruling. Nowadays, I'm quite confident that such mental overhead isn't worth my effort. Two ways: First and foremost, system mastery (although I hesitate to use the term). I didn't just read those rulebooks, I [I]studied[/I] them. Once you had a deep enough knowledge of the various bits and pieces of the system, a sort of gestalt understanding could arise, and then you could use that to crank out things quickly. This was a lot "fuzzier" than 4e's, because of the way the system core worked. If you were to try and recreate it explicitly, as 4e does, there would be a great many conditional rules to it. Secondly, what I called friendly DMing. There's a lot of advice in the 2e books for DMs. A good portion of it is pretty good. It is a rather fine line to walk, however. Personally, I was quite happy to let things roll. My goals, the things I wanted to show off, were not contrary to how the players wanted to go about things. I wasn't trying to pull off a "serious" story, and other DMs often teased me about my world (magic-heavy, over-the-top), but I figured if we were all having fun....who cared? The funny thing is, much like how a sit-com can evolve into a drama, my campaigns ended up achieving a very high reputation amongst my college crowd. Now, I'm not sure exactly why that second part worked as well as it did, but I have a pretty good suspicion. I've tried lots of different games and game styles, and I've noticed a few things, but one of them is....Drama is very hard to do, even in games that develop that history as part of character creation. You need a very specific type of player who's willing to invest in the tension(s) and characters quickly. I haven't met many people like that. Its much more effective to start with a simpler, sillier, game and work up to something that "matters." People invest much more readily and deeply into a character whose story they have experienced "firsthand." Characters need to start with plenty of blank spaces that get filled in later. This is yet another factor in my desire for fast-playing rules. The faster we can build up history, the faster folks will be genuinely invested in their characters. enh...I'm not sure I like players "confidently taking risks", it sounds a little too much like "astutely calculating odds" to me. How risky is it, if you're confident?;) I too have high hopes for bounded accuracy. I don't think we've seen enough of the rest to know. *I personally find it more interesting to try and play a toady or lieutenant in such games, but rarely find a worthy master. In the one game where I played a dominant evil character from the start, I horrified the rest of the players to a degree that the campaign ended. :blush: (Just as I had finally succeeded in attracting the attention of an order of Paladins and creating the hero who should've gone on to defeat me, more's the pity.) [/QUOTE]
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