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Lethality, AD&D, and 5e: Looking Back at the Deadliest Edition
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<blockquote data-quote="Mannahnin" data-source="post: 9064887" data-attributes="member: 7026594"><p>Great piece. I had a similar reaction to a recent post about KotB. I remember seeing it as pretty lethal, the numbers of enemies being unreasonable to deal with for any L1-2 party in old school D&D unless you had a huge party and/or bolstered your numbers with hirelings. I have commonly seen new DMs in OSR circles asking how to make the module work for their players and not turn into a TPK-fest.</p><p></p><p>But if the DM is motivated the right way, the module can be a lot easier than if you're running it "straight up". Never mind even the difficulty difference possible with a single rules change like using Morale checks vs not using them.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I think the bit about average HP is even more dramatic if we look at the levels most common to play. IME playing above 9th level wasn't all that common in old school play (though some folks certainly did it). The nature of the XP charts was such that getting up to and above 9th or 10th level was a LOT of xp. Most play IME occurred in the classic "sweet spot" of say, 3rd to 8th level, where PCs have at least SOME durability and stamina (spells and HP), but not unlimited resources.</p><p></p><p>So what are we looking at for an average party of adventurers somewhere in that "sweet spot"? Let's ignore individual XP awards or the chance of death or missed sessions, and just give a party of six adventurers 35,001 XP, enough for the Fighter to be 6th level, and check average HP. I'm going to disregard Con bonuses, even though most likely a couple of the adventurers would have them, just because they're less accessible (15 Con needed for +1, 16 or better for +2, with Fighters and their subclasses getting +3 for 17 and +4 for 18 Con), and I want them to be apples to apples.</p><p></p><p><strong>Average hit points for Hard-bitten average party of 6, AD&D 1979, at 35,001 xp each</strong></p><p>L6 <strong>Fighter</strong>: <strong><span style="color: rgb(65, 168, 95)">33</span></strong></p><p>L6 <strong>Cleric</strong>: <strong>27</strong></p><p>L5 <strong>Magic-User</strong>: <strong><span style="color: rgb(226, 80, 65)">12.5</span></strong></p><p>L6 Thief: <strong>21</strong></p><p>L4/5 Fighter/Thief multiclass (say, a Halfling): <strong>20 </strong>(depending on how you divide and assuming you allow fractions to be conserved)</p><p>L4/4 Fighter/Magic User (classic Elf character): <strong><span style="color: rgb(184, 49, 47)">16 </span></strong>(again, average assuming you don't require rounding odd numbers down when halved)</p><p></p><p>That's certainly a LOT less fragile than the same characters at 1st level with HP ranging from (on average) 2 or 3 to as high as 6, all easily within range of being one-shotted by any random Orc. But it's not a whole lot of breathing room when an unwounded dragon does more than any of these guys have with a single breath attack.</p><p></p><p>A fun article on healing rates:</p><p></p><p>[URL unfurl="true"]http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2018/03/healing-through-ages.html[/URL]</p><p></p><p></p><p>Point of order! Ear Seekers! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite17" alt=":LOL:" title="Laugh :LOL:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":LOL:" /> Rot Grubs were to F you over for searching corpses. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite18" alt=":ROFLMAO:" title="ROFL :ROFLMAO:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":ROFLMAO:" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>In the interests of being technically correct ("the best kind of correct") I will note that instant death can happen in 5E, and even occasionally does at low levels. In roughly the level 1-3 range it's possible for bruiser monsters to one shot kill a fair percentage of PCs with a critical hit (and occasionally without one). A CR2 Ogre can whack you for as much as 36 if it gets lucky enough, and that'll more than double out the HP of almost any level 1-2 PC. Have the PC down in single digits from a prior hit and the odds increase.</p><p></p><p>Still a far cry from the old days, but I've seen it happen.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I do tend to find that when I run old-school, lower HP games, my players respond with great caution and heal up whenever possible. They'll camp someplace fortified and use every healing spell at their disposal to get topped up as best they can before they enter a dungeon. They won't continue adventuring while down any HP if they can avoid it. And I don't want to force them with plot reasons too often- that makes an already deadly game more so, and later editions with faster healing are better suited to an action movie pace.</p><p></p><p></p><p>TBF we have actual computer games to do that stuff, and folks love them. Folks running TTRPGs who really go in for all the automated tools are still a fraction of the tabletop gaming population, IMO. Most of us seem to prefer simpler rules we can track without needing automated tools.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mannahnin, post: 9064887, member: 7026594"] Great piece. I had a similar reaction to a recent post about KotB. I remember seeing it as pretty lethal, the numbers of enemies being unreasonable to deal with for any L1-2 party in old school D&D unless you had a huge party and/or bolstered your numbers with hirelings. I have commonly seen new DMs in OSR circles asking how to make the module work for their players and not turn into a TPK-fest. But if the DM is motivated the right way, the module can be a lot easier than if you're running it "straight up". Never mind even the difficulty difference possible with a single rules change like using Morale checks vs not using them. I think the bit about average HP is even more dramatic if we look at the levels most common to play. IME playing above 9th level wasn't all that common in old school play (though some folks certainly did it). The nature of the XP charts was such that getting up to and above 9th or 10th level was a LOT of xp. Most play IME occurred in the classic "sweet spot" of say, 3rd to 8th level, where PCs have at least SOME durability and stamina (spells and HP), but not unlimited resources. So what are we looking at for an average party of adventurers somewhere in that "sweet spot"? Let's ignore individual XP awards or the chance of death or missed sessions, and just give a party of six adventurers 35,001 XP, enough for the Fighter to be 6th level, and check average HP. I'm going to disregard Con bonuses, even though most likely a couple of the adventurers would have them, just because they're less accessible (15 Con needed for +1, 16 or better for +2, with Fighters and their subclasses getting +3 for 17 and +4 for 18 Con), and I want them to be apples to apples. [B]Average hit points for Hard-bitten average party of 6, AD&D 1979, at 35,001 xp each[/B] L6 [B]Fighter[/B]: [B][COLOR=rgb(65, 168, 95)]33[/COLOR][/B] L6 [B]Cleric[/B]: [B]27[/B] L5 [B]Magic-User[/B]: [B][COLOR=rgb(226, 80, 65)]12.5[/COLOR][/B] L6 Thief: [B]21[/B] L4/5 Fighter/Thief multiclass (say, a Halfling): [B]20 [/B](depending on how you divide and assuming you allow fractions to be conserved) L4/4 Fighter/Magic User (classic Elf character): [B][COLOR=rgb(184, 49, 47)]16 [/COLOR][/B](again, average assuming you don't require rounding odd numbers down when halved) That's certainly a LOT less fragile than the same characters at 1st level with HP ranging from (on average) 2 or 3 to as high as 6, all easily within range of being one-shotted by any random Orc. But it's not a whole lot of breathing room when an unwounded dragon does more than any of these guys have with a single breath attack. A fun article on healing rates: [URL unfurl="true"]http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2018/03/healing-through-ages.html[/URL] Point of order! Ear Seekers! :LOL: Rot Grubs were to F you over for searching corpses. :ROFLMAO: In the interests of being technically correct ("the best kind of correct") I will note that instant death can happen in 5E, and even occasionally does at low levels. In roughly the level 1-3 range it's possible for bruiser monsters to one shot kill a fair percentage of PCs with a critical hit (and occasionally without one). A CR2 Ogre can whack you for as much as 36 if it gets lucky enough, and that'll more than double out the HP of almost any level 1-2 PC. Have the PC down in single digits from a prior hit and the odds increase. Still a far cry from the old days, but I've seen it happen. I do tend to find that when I run old-school, lower HP games, my players respond with great caution and heal up whenever possible. They'll camp someplace fortified and use every healing spell at their disposal to get topped up as best they can before they enter a dungeon. They won't continue adventuring while down any HP if they can avoid it. And I don't want to force them with plot reasons too often- that makes an already deadly game more so, and later editions with faster healing are better suited to an action movie pace. TBF we have actual computer games to do that stuff, and folks love them. Folks running TTRPGs who really go in for all the automated tools are still a fraction of the tabletop gaming population, IMO. Most of us seem to prefer simpler rules we can track without needing automated tools. [/QUOTE]
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