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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Let's Read the AD&D 2nd Edition PHB+DMG!
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<blockquote data-quote="Iosue" data-source="post: 9187296" data-attributes="member: 6680772"><p>There was a nice long discussion on 3d6-in-order vs. alternative methods in the old timers thread, so I'm really not interested in that. What gets me is 2nd Edition's reticence to engage in its own game. I'm a D&D guy, so I've always been down with 3d6-in-order. But it doesn't fit with AD&D. And I'm nonplussed at their willingness to keep so many legacy elements of 1st Edition, but not its character generation methods. Granted a few of these <em>are</em> included, but they're deprecated in the text. 4d6-drop lowest was Method I for AD&D, and now it's regulated to Method V.</p><p></p><p>To me this is not even a roll-play vs role-play issue. If 2nd Ed. wanted to stop power gaming, that's fine. Nerf the bonuses, nerf the classes. But they didn't do that. They nerfed the <em>generation method</em>, then wagged their finger at anyone wanting to play the powerful classes, or using the more generous methods. Forget power-gamers, this just hinders people who want to role-play in these classes they've deigned to include in the book. Everybody loses.</p><p></p><p>And you know, if they went all-in the <em>exploration</em> aspect of the game, this might not even be that big of a problem. But they actually shifted the game towards heroic fantasy, then only grudgingly give the players the tools to realize heroic fantasy.</p><p></p><p>I think there's a Zeitgeist thing going on here that I'm not keyed in on. As I noted, I started playing in '87, but didn't start to get involved in in the conversation (i.e., started reading Dragon magazine, let alone other magazines) until 1991. Much like the Satanic Panic and MADD influenced the aesthetic and content of 2nd Ed., I suspect there were some market forces inducing TSR to try threading the needle of keeping the edition largely the same, and yet reject the "power gaming" design elements of 1st Edition. Maybe it was just a personal thing for Zeb Cook. Maybe I'm overthinking it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Iosue, post: 9187296, member: 6680772"] There was a nice long discussion on 3d6-in-order vs. alternative methods in the old timers thread, so I'm really not interested in that. What gets me is 2nd Edition's reticence to engage in its own game. I'm a D&D guy, so I've always been down with 3d6-in-order. But it doesn't fit with AD&D. And I'm nonplussed at their willingness to keep so many legacy elements of 1st Edition, but not its character generation methods. Granted a few of these [I]are[/I] included, but they're deprecated in the text. 4d6-drop lowest was Method I for AD&D, and now it's regulated to Method V. To me this is not even a roll-play vs role-play issue. If 2nd Ed. wanted to stop power gaming, that's fine. Nerf the bonuses, nerf the classes. But they didn't do that. They nerfed the [I]generation method[/I], then wagged their finger at anyone wanting to play the powerful classes, or using the more generous methods. Forget power-gamers, this just hinders people who want to role-play in these classes they've deigned to include in the book. Everybody loses. And you know, if they went all-in the [I]exploration[/I] aspect of the game, this might not even be that big of a problem. But they actually shifted the game towards heroic fantasy, then only grudgingly give the players the tools to realize heroic fantasy. I think there's a Zeitgeist thing going on here that I'm not keyed in on. As I noted, I started playing in '87, but didn't start to get involved in in the conversation (i.e., started reading Dragon magazine, let alone other magazines) until 1991. Much like the Satanic Panic and MADD influenced the aesthetic and content of 2nd Ed., I suspect there were some market forces inducing TSR to try threading the needle of keeping the edition largely the same, and yet reject the "power gaming" design elements of 1st Edition. Maybe it was just a personal thing for Zeb Cook. Maybe I'm overthinking it. [/QUOTE]
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