Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level = Challenge Rating
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Yaarel" data-source="post: 9342473" data-attributes="member: 58172"><p>The following is roughly true for Challenge ratings on average. It should probably be true for player character Levels as well. The Proficiency bonus is the same for both Challenge and Level. Meanwhile, it probably makes sense for player characters to acquire the very high Ability bonuses sooner (Strength, Intelligence, etcetera).</p><p></p><p></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><td><br /> Level</td><td>Proficiency</td><td>Highest<br /> Ability</td><td>Attack<br /> =<br /> Proficiency<br /> +<br /> Ability</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>0</td><td>+1</td><td>+3</td><td>+4</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>1</td><td>+2</td><td></td><td>+5</td></tr><tr><td>2</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>3</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>4</td><td></td><td>+4</td><td>+6</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>5</td><td>+3</td><td></td><td>+7</td></tr><tr><td>6</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>7</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>8</td><td></td><td>+5</td><td>+8</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>9</td><td>+4</td><td></td><td>+9</td></tr><tr><td>10</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>11</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>12</td><td></td><td>+6</td><td>+10</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>13</td><td>+5</td><td></td><td>+11</td></tr><tr><td>14</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>15</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>16</td><td></td><td>+7</td><td>+12</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>17</td><td>+6</td><td></td><td>+13</td></tr><tr><td>18</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>19</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>20</td><td></td><td>+8</td><td>+14</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>21</td><td>+7</td><td></td><td>+15</td></tr><tr><td>22</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>23</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>24</td><td></td><td>+9</td><td>+16</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>25</td><td>+8</td><td></td><td>+17</td></tr><tr><td>26</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>27</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>28</td><td></td><td>+10</td><td>+18</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>29</td><td>+9</td><td></td><td>+19</td></tr><tr><td>30</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>31</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>32</td><td></td><td>+11</td><td>+20</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>33</td><td>+10</td><td></td><td>+21</td></tr><tr><td>34</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>35</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>36</td><td></td><td>+12</td><td>+22</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>37</td><td>+11</td><td></td><td>+23</td></tr><tr><td>38</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>39</td><td></td><td></td><td></td></tr><tr><td>40</td><td></td><td>+13</td><td>+24</td></tr></table><p></p><p></p><p>Notice, if true for players: a character who uses the feats for Ability improvements, will be able to attain +5 at level 8, +6 at level 12, +7 at level 16, then entering Epic levels with +9. Most characters would spend their feats for other features, but these superhuman Abilities would become possible.</p><p></p><p>Superhero Abilities make sense anyway for levels 9-12, 13-16, and 17-20. Since most players today dont reach these tiers anyway, there will be negligible impact. Indeed to emphasize that these tiers are for the superhero genre can entice players to advance onward into these tiers.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Notice where Level 0 might have +3 as the highest Ability. This suggests that the "average" Human is +1. Then below average is +0, and above average is +2. Most Humans will be +1, with at least one Ability at +0, and +2 at one Ability that the individual tends to be good at. There can be outliers, such as +3 for a rare high Ability, or a negative bonus as a rare difficulty.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The monster Attack bonuses add together Proficiency and Ability. Very high Abilities become available sooner than expected relative to the Proficiency. The monsters rarely include magic items as part of this Attack bonus. But the very high number sometimes implies magic. For example, an Attack bonus of +11 at Challenge Level 13, might represent the +5 Proficiency, then only a +4 Ability and by implication a +2 weapon. Every monster statblock is its own concept, but the Proficiency is always true, and it is the Ability and magic that depend on concept.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The high Attack bonuses correlate very high Ability bonuses that can boost AC as well. These big numbers deviate from the goal of "bounded accuracy". Once modifications are adding +11 to a d20, creatures are becoming unreachable by lower tier creatures.</p><p></p><p>I am ok with the defacto slackening of bounded accuracy that has already happened. It still is at a slower pace than 3e. At the same time, each four-level tier <em>feels</em> different from the tiers before and after. Each tier is a different league of play. At level 9 with its tier 9 thru 12, the superhero genre is starting to happen with figures like Batman and Legolas. Meanwhile the standard superhero is tier 13 thru 16 and should feel different again. The most powerful superheroes like Storm and Superman are different yet again at the tier of 17 thru 20. The Epic levels truly feel <em>beyond</em>.</p><p></p><p>D&D 5e has already evolved its bounded accuracy this way. It is what it is. The big numbers exist. But I also think, these 5e numbers are optimally where they should be.</p><p></p><p>By extension, a player character should be able to use the feat at level 12 to boost an Ability to +6.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Yaarel, post: 9342473, member: 58172"] The following is roughly true for Challenge ratings on average. It should probably be true for player character Levels as well. The Proficiency bonus is the same for both Challenge and Level. Meanwhile, it probably makes sense for player characters to acquire the very high Ability bonuses sooner (Strength, Intelligence, etcetera). [TABLE] [TR] [TD] Level[/TD] [TD]Proficiency[/TD] [TD]Highest Ability[/TD] [TD]Attack = Proficiency + Ability[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]0[/TD] [TD]+1[/TD] [TD]+3[/TD] [TD]+4[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]1[/TD] [TD]+2[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+5[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]2[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]3[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]4[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+4[/TD] [TD]+6[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]5[/TD] [TD]+3[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+7[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]6[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]7[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]8[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+5[/TD] [TD]+8[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]9[/TD] [TD]+4[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+9[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]10[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]11[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]12[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+6[/TD] [TD]+10[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]13[/TD] [TD]+5[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+11[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]14[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]15[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]16[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+7[/TD] [TD]+12[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]17[/TD] [TD]+6[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+13[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]18[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]19[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]20[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+8[/TD] [TD]+14[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]21[/TD] [TD]+7[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+15[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]22[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]23[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]24[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+9[/TD] [TD]+16[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]25[/TD] [TD]+8[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+17[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]26[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]27[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]28[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+10[/TD] [TD]+18[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]29[/TD] [TD]+9[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+19[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]30[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]31[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]32[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+11[/TD] [TD]+20[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]33[/TD] [TD]+10[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+21[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]34[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]35[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]36[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+12[/TD] [TD]+22[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]37[/TD] [TD]+11[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+23[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]38[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]39[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD]40[/TD] [TD][/TD] [TD]+13[/TD] [TD]+24[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Notice, if true for players: a character who uses the feats for Ability improvements, will be able to attain +5 at level 8, +6 at level 12, +7 at level 16, then entering Epic levels with +9. Most characters would spend their feats for other features, but these superhuman Abilities would become possible. Superhero Abilities make sense anyway for levels 9-12, 13-16, and 17-20. Since most players today dont reach these tiers anyway, there will be negligible impact. Indeed to emphasize that these tiers are for the superhero genre can entice players to advance onward into these tiers. Notice where Level 0 might have +3 as the highest Ability. This suggests that the "average" Human is +1. Then below average is +0, and above average is +2. Most Humans will be +1, with at least one Ability at +0, and +2 at one Ability that the individual tends to be good at. There can be outliers, such as +3 for a rare high Ability, or a negative bonus as a rare difficulty. The monster Attack bonuses add together Proficiency and Ability. Very high Abilities become available sooner than expected relative to the Proficiency. The monsters rarely include magic items as part of this Attack bonus. But the very high number sometimes implies magic. For example, an Attack bonus of +11 at Challenge Level 13, might represent the +5 Proficiency, then only a +4 Ability and by implication a +2 weapon. Every monster statblock is its own concept, but the Proficiency is always true, and it is the Ability and magic that depend on concept. The high Attack bonuses correlate very high Ability bonuses that can boost AC as well. These big numbers deviate from the goal of "bounded accuracy". Once modifications are adding +11 to a d20, creatures are becoming unreachable by lower tier creatures. I am ok with the defacto slackening of bounded accuracy that has already happened. It still is at a slower pace than 3e. At the same time, each four-level tier [I]feels[/I] different from the tiers before and after. Each tier is a different league of play. At level 9 with its tier 9 thru 12, the superhero genre is starting to happen with figures like Batman and Legolas. Meanwhile the standard superhero is tier 13 thru 16 and should feel different again. The most powerful superheroes like Storm and Superman are different yet again at the tier of 17 thru 20. The Epic levels truly feel [I]beyond[/I]. D&D 5e has already evolved its bounded accuracy this way. It is what it is. The big numbers exist. But I also think, these 5e numbers are optimally where they should be. By extension, a player character should be able to use the feat at level 12 to boost an Ability to +6. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level = Challenge Rating
Top