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Long rests getting better but GM needs still not being considered
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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8882451" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>The cleric packet can only support so much discussion & it looks like we have at least another week or two till the next packet I figured that with so much (well deserved) focus on the OGL1.1 thing it might not be a bad time to discuss something in every packet so far. Specifically long rests, they are getting bettyer but still largely written for the wrong side of the GM screen.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>[spoiler="Origins Long Rest"]</p><p>A Long Rest is a period of extended downtime—</p><p>at least 8 hours long—during which a creature</p><p>sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no</p><p>more than 2 hours of light activity, such as</p><p>reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.</p><p>BENEFITS OF THE REST</p><p>At the end of a Long Rest, a creature regains all</p><p>lost Hit Points. The creature also regains spent</p><p>Hit Dice, up to half of the creature’s total</p><p>number of them (round down; minimum of one</p><p>die).</p><p> A creature can’t benefit from more than one</p><p>Long Rest in a 24-hour period, and a creature</p><p>must have at least 1 Hit Point at the start of the</p><p>rest to gain its benefits.</p><p>INTERRUPTING THE REST</p><p>If a Long Rest is interrupted by combat or by 1</p><p>hour of walking, casting Spells, or similar</p><p>activity, the rest confers no benefit and must be</p><p>restarted; however, if the rest was at least 1</p><p>hour long before the interruption, the creature</p><p>gains the benefits of a Short Rest.</p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p></p><p>[spoiler="Expert Long Rest"]</p><p>LONG REST</p><p>A Long Rest is a period of extended downtime—</p><p>at least 8 hours long—available to any creature.</p><p>During a Long Rest, you sleep for at least 6 hours</p><p>and perform no more than 2 hours of light</p><p>activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or</p><p>standing watch.</p><p>BENEFITS OF THE REST</p><p>When you finish a Long Rest, you gain the</p><p>following benefits:</p><p>Regain All HP. You regain all lost Hit Points.</p><p>Regain All HD. You regain all spent Hit Dice.</p><p>HP Max Restored. If your Hit Point Maximum</p><p>was reduced, it returns to normal.</p><p>Ability Scores Restored. If any of your Ability</p><p>Scores were reduced, they return to normal.</p><p> You can’t benefit from more than one Long</p><p>Rest in a 24-hour period, and you must have at</p><p>least 1 Hit Point at the start of the rest to gain its</p><p>benefits.</p><p>INTERRUPTING THE REST</p><p>If a Long Rest is interrupted by combat or by 1</p><p>hour of walking, casting Spells, or similar</p><p>activity, the rest confers no benefit and must be</p><p>restarted; however, if the rest was at least 1 hour</p><p>long before the interruption, you gain the</p><p>benefits of a Short Rest.</p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p>[spoiler="Cleric Long Rest"]</p><p>LONG REST</p><p>A Long Rest is a period of extended downtime—</p><p>at least 8 hours long—available to any creature.</p><p>During a Long Rest, you sleep for at least 6 hours</p><p>and perform no more than 2 hours of light</p><p>activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or</p><p>standing watch.</p><p>BENEFITS OF THE REST</p><p>To start a Long Rest, you must have at least 1 Hit</p><p>Point. When you finish the rest, you gain the</p><p>following benefits:</p><p>Regain All HP. You regain all lost Hit Points.</p><p>Regain All HD. You regain all spent Hit Dice.</p><p>HP Max Restored. If your Hit Point Maximum</p><p>was reduced, it returns to normal.</p><p>Ability Scores Restored. If any of your Ability</p><p>Scores were reduced, they return to normal.</p><p>Exhaustion Reduced. If you are Exhausted,</p><p>your level of exhaustion decreases by 1.</p><p> After you finish a Long Rest, you must wait at</p><p>least 16 hours before starting another one.</p><p>INTERRUPTING THE REST</p><p>A Long Rest is stopped by the following</p><p>interruptions:</p><p>• Combat</p><p>• Casting a spell other than a 0-level spell</p><p>• 1 hour of walking or other physical exertion</p><p>If the rest was at least 1 hour long before the</p><p>interruption, you gain the benefits of a Short</p><p>Rest.</p><p> You can resume a Long Rest immediately after</p><p>an interruption. If you do so, the rest requires 1</p><p>additional hour to finish per interruption.</p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p></p><p>If the goal is diehard every session on loop as the only style of game these are great, but they all cause serious problems for other styles of game. Doom clocks can be used to make resting more difficult, but eventually players realize that they can call the GM's bluff & dare them into just executing their own campaign with no real consequences if they want a rest whenever they feel like it. Alternately the doom clocks are strictly enforced & the game winds up an exhausting grind feeling [spoiler="like this"][MEDIA=youtube]16lgiAygsqA[/MEDIA]</p><p></p><p>Watching that is almost as exhausting as having to run a game under those conditions week after week[/spoiler]</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Back in 2e resting was in a few forms<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Firstly the GM agreed now was a good time for the group to rest up & it was handwaved when <em>given</em> to the party... Everyone is back to full or whatever fraction of complete the GM felt appropriate given the situation.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Secondly the GM expressed that it was not safe or that time was limited in whatever way but the players called the GM's bluff & did it anyways. This was (I believe) 1hp/day plus a healer's spell slots for cure spells, but <em>players</em> needed to balance that against the fact that the healers couldn't later use those slots while adventuring after <em>taking</em> one</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">[ispoiler]That's about it[/ispoiler]</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">In 3.x it varied a little bit because of <a href="https://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/complete-warrior--61/faster-healing--1084/index.html" target="_blank">a feat</a> but effectively the values were still the same at first. <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Once again the GM agreed now was a good time for the group to rest up & it was handwaved when <em>given</em> to the party... Everyone is back to full or whatever fraction of complete the GM felt appropriate given the situation.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The GM had an extra tool for that handwaved rest though in that they could put use some reciprocity across the group & handwave it for just some PCs by hooking it onto Alice using the <a href="https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3e_SRD:Heal_Skill#Long-Term_Care" target="_blank">long term care</a> action to justify why Bob or whoever is getting such a leg up instead of Alice being yet another pair of eyes on watch rotation or whatever.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">After long term care & natural healing the GM a good bit of control over pacing by using the supply of CLW wands top allow HP recovery mid adventure without resource recovery & they didn't need to resort to all battle of helms deep all the time & half minute hero style doom clock since those could be tied to gold (which was still very much required by players).</li> </ul></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">In 5e there is one recovery speed and a few routes for them but almost none of them are a thing under the GM's control or within their sphere of influence.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There's no doom clock and the GM handwaves <em>giving</em> one to the players with a shrug or there is a doom clockbut the GM decides the PCs need/deserve one for whatever reason & <em>gives</em> one to the party.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The group didn't really need a rest but <em>claimed</em> one anyways because they went to sleep at night instead of going for forced march penalties.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The GM couldn't invent yet <em>another</em> reason why simply sleeping is not an option or couldn't stomach yet another ruleslawyering argument that leaves them with no ground to stand on against "it <em>says</em> <a href="https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/adventuring#LongRest" target="_blank">8 hours</a>, <em>you</em> need to <em>give</em> <em>us</em> a long rest so we get back everything." so the players <em>take</em> one and give it to their own PCs to recover literally everything.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">[ispoiler]Nobody cares about the GM's efforts to deter a 5mwd and the group <em>takes</em> one anyways to recover literally everything[/ispoiler]</li> </ul></li> </ul><p>So far we've not seen a way that the GM can say"no you aren't safe and the five of you spent the night rotating two hour shifts keeping watch because it's literally a hellscape & you knew it when you dared me to TPK the group by <em>taking</em> that rest" -or- "you sleep but it's a long journey & it doesn't make sense to force 6-8 encounters between sunup to sundown, you only get back what I give you while you travel". short rests & hitdice provide an analog for hp recovery without resource recovery -but- <em>all</em> HD are recovered after the 8 hour nap most of us narratively call "going to sleep at night" & there's no way to link them to gold or similar. 1d&d GMs very much need the ability to play those kinds of cards when it fits the adventure without forcing the group to accept "we are switching to gritty realism & now will need to juggle all the problems that causes so expect more nerfs too because pretty please this 5mwddoesn't fit right now guys"</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 8882451, member: 93670"] The cleric packet can only support so much discussion & it looks like we have at least another week or two till the next packet I figured that with so much (well deserved) focus on the OGL1.1 thing it might not be a bad time to discuss something in every packet so far. Specifically long rests, they are getting bettyer but still largely written for the wrong side of the GM screen. [spoiler="Origins Long Rest"] A Long Rest is a period of extended downtime— at least 8 hours long—during which a creature sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch. BENEFITS OF THE REST At the end of a Long Rest, a creature regains all lost Hit Points. The creature also regains spent Hit Dice, up to half of the creature’s total number of them (round down; minimum of one die). A creature can’t benefit from more than one Long Rest in a 24-hour period, and a creature must have at least 1 Hit Point at the start of the rest to gain its benefits. INTERRUPTING THE REST If a Long Rest is interrupted by combat or by 1 hour of walking, casting Spells, or similar activity, the rest confers no benefit and must be restarted; however, if the rest was at least 1 hour long before the interruption, the creature gains the benefits of a Short Rest. [/spoiler] [spoiler="Expert Long Rest"] LONG REST A Long Rest is a period of extended downtime— at least 8 hours long—available to any creature. During a Long Rest, you sleep for at least 6 hours and perform no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch. BENEFITS OF THE REST When you finish a Long Rest, you gain the following benefits: Regain All HP. You regain all lost Hit Points. Regain All HD. You regain all spent Hit Dice. HP Max Restored. If your Hit Point Maximum was reduced, it returns to normal. Ability Scores Restored. If any of your Ability Scores were reduced, they return to normal. You can’t benefit from more than one Long Rest in a 24-hour period, and you must have at least 1 Hit Point at the start of the rest to gain its benefits. INTERRUPTING THE REST If a Long Rest is interrupted by combat or by 1 hour of walking, casting Spells, or similar activity, the rest confers no benefit and must be restarted; however, if the rest was at least 1 hour long before the interruption, you gain the benefits of a Short Rest. [/spoiler] [spoiler="Cleric Long Rest"] LONG REST A Long Rest is a period of extended downtime— at least 8 hours long—available to any creature. During a Long Rest, you sleep for at least 6 hours and perform no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch. BENEFITS OF THE REST To start a Long Rest, you must have at least 1 Hit Point. When you finish the rest, you gain the following benefits: Regain All HP. You regain all lost Hit Points. Regain All HD. You regain all spent Hit Dice. HP Max Restored. If your Hit Point Maximum was reduced, it returns to normal. Ability Scores Restored. If any of your Ability Scores were reduced, they return to normal. Exhaustion Reduced. If you are Exhausted, your level of exhaustion decreases by 1. After you finish a Long Rest, you must wait at least 16 hours before starting another one. INTERRUPTING THE REST A Long Rest is stopped by the following interruptions: • Combat • Casting a spell other than a 0-level spell • 1 hour of walking or other physical exertion If the rest was at least 1 hour long before the interruption, you gain the benefits of a Short Rest. You can resume a Long Rest immediately after an interruption. If you do so, the rest requires 1 additional hour to finish per interruption. [/spoiler] If the goal is diehard every session on loop as the only style of game these are great, but they all cause serious problems for other styles of game. Doom clocks can be used to make resting more difficult, but eventually players realize that they can call the GM's bluff & dare them into just executing their own campaign with no real consequences if they want a rest whenever they feel like it. Alternately the doom clocks are strictly enforced & the game winds up an exhausting grind feeling [spoiler="like this"][MEDIA=youtube]16lgiAygsqA[/MEDIA] Watching that is almost as exhausting as having to run a game under those conditions week after week[/spoiler] [LIST] [*]Back in 2e resting was in a few forms [LIST] [*]Firstly the GM agreed now was a good time for the group to rest up & it was handwaved when [I]given[/I] to the party... Everyone is back to full or whatever fraction of complete the GM felt appropriate given the situation. [*]Secondly the GM expressed that it was not safe or that time was limited in whatever way but the players called the GM's bluff & did it anyways. This was (I believe) 1hp/day plus a healer's spell slots for cure spells, but [I]players[/I] needed to balance that against the fact that the healers couldn't later use those slots while adventuring after [I]taking[/I] one [*][ispoiler]That's about it[/ispoiler] [/LIST] [*]In 3.x it varied a little bit because of [URL='https://dnd.arkalseif.info/feats/complete-warrior--61/faster-healing--1084/index.html']a feat[/URL] but effectively the values were still the same at first. [LIST] [*]Once again the GM agreed now was a good time for the group to rest up & it was handwaved when [I]given[/I] to the party... Everyone is back to full or whatever fraction of complete the GM felt appropriate given the situation. [*]The GM had an extra tool for that handwaved rest though in that they could put use some reciprocity across the group & handwave it for just some PCs by hooking it onto Alice using the [URL='https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/3e_SRD:Heal_Skill#Long-Term_Care']long term care[/URL] action to justify why Bob or whoever is getting such a leg up instead of Alice being yet another pair of eyes on watch rotation or whatever. [*]After long term care & natural healing the GM a good bit of control over pacing by using the supply of CLW wands top allow HP recovery mid adventure without resource recovery & they didn't need to resort to all battle of helms deep all the time & half minute hero style doom clock since those could be tied to gold (which was still very much required by players). [/LIST] [*]In 5e there is one recovery speed and a few routes for them but almost none of them are a thing under the GM's control or within their sphere of influence. [LIST] [*]There's no doom clock and the GM handwaves [I]giving[/I] one to the players with a shrug or there is a doom clockbut the GM decides the PCs need/deserve one for whatever reason & [I]gives[/I] one to the party. [*]The group didn't really need a rest but [I]claimed[/I] one anyways because they went to sleep at night instead of going for forced march penalties. [*]The GM couldn't invent yet [I]another[/I] reason why simply sleeping is not an option or couldn't stomach yet another ruleslawyering argument that leaves them with no ground to stand on against "it [I]says[/I] [URL='https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/adventuring#LongRest']8 hours[/URL], [I]you[/I] need to [I]give[/I] [I]us[/I] a long rest so we get back everything." so the players [I]take[/I] one and give it to their own PCs to recover literally everything. [*][ispoiler]Nobody cares about the GM's efforts to deter a 5mwd and the group [I]takes[/I] one anyways to recover literally everything[/ispoiler] [/LIST] [/LIST] So far we've not seen a way that the GM can say"no you aren't safe and the five of you spent the night rotating two hour shifts keeping watch because it's literally a hellscape & you knew it when you dared me to TPK the group by [I]taking[/I] that rest" -or- "you sleep but it's a long journey & it doesn't make sense to force 6-8 encounters between sunup to sundown, you only get back what I give you while you travel". short rests & hitdice provide an analog for hp recovery without resource recovery -but- [I]all[/I] HD are recovered after the 8 hour nap most of us narratively call "going to sleep at night" & there's no way to link them to gold or similar. 1d&d GMs very much need the ability to play those kinds of cards when it fits the adventure without forcing the group to accept "we are switching to gritty realism & now will need to juggle all the problems that causes so expect more nerfs too because pretty please this 5mwddoesn't fit right now guys" [/QUOTE]
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