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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7240544" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>I know that's all explained in the Silmarilion, but in the Hobbit and LotR, he, like, makes fireworks, 'knows hundreds of spells of opening' and provides tons of exposition - he's very knowledge-oriented.</p><p></p><p> Sure, though who knows what she might retcon in her answer to the Silmarillion. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> Seriously, though, the idea of innate power (or talent) is not incompatible with the idea of arcane knowledge as a source of power.</p><p></p><p> No, but they draw on the hermetic tradition which dates back at least that far. Crowley revealed secrets of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn which purported to have a lineage of centuries, even though they were just a comparatively recent offshoot of the Rosicrucians. That was more the tail-end of people taking hermeticism seriously, though, it was much bigger in prior centuries - back, for the famous instance, when Newton was into it. </p><p></p><p> of course, our whole pop-culture perception of magic is infused with 19th & early 20th century weirdness. You don't need to have read Sinnett's 'The Occult World' to have been influenced by Theosophy, you just have to have watched Topper or, more recently, Ghost. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>Vancian was a twist on it, though. His magicians mostly didn't /learn/ from their books, they memorized. Very few of them had any real understanding and created new spells, for instance. In that sense, Vance could have been commenting on the state or nature of education, rather like Hesse in The Glass Bead Game.</p><p></p><p> What most wizards did in fiction: either vanish into thin air, or fall back on the one magical trick they had that worked in a fight, or pick up a weapon - and generally only one of those per wizard. </p><p></p><p> For 5e I've seriously considered slotless casters - at-will 'cantrips' and ritual casting, only. It'd be closer to the depiction in genre and would hardly be underpowered. </p><p></p><p>The other part of the idea of the knowledge-wizard is that his specific occult knowledge could provide strategies or preparation to deal with specific threats, making it into more of a 'leader' role class...</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7240544, member: 996"] I know that's all explained in the Silmarilion, but in the Hobbit and LotR, he, like, makes fireworks, 'knows hundreds of spells of opening' and provides tons of exposition - he's very knowledge-oriented. Sure, though who knows what she might retcon in her answer to the Silmarillion. ;) Seriously, though, the idea of innate power (or talent) is not incompatible with the idea of arcane knowledge as a source of power. No, but they draw on the hermetic tradition which dates back at least that far. Crowley revealed secrets of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn which purported to have a lineage of centuries, even though they were just a comparatively recent offshoot of the Rosicrucians. That was more the tail-end of people taking hermeticism seriously, though, it was much bigger in prior centuries - back, for the famous instance, when Newton was into it. of course, our whole pop-culture perception of magic is infused with 19th & early 20th century weirdness. You don't need to have read Sinnett's 'The Occult World' to have been influenced by Theosophy, you just have to have watched Topper or, more recently, Ghost. ;) Vancian was a twist on it, though. His magicians mostly didn't /learn/ from their books, they memorized. Very few of them had any real understanding and created new spells, for instance. In that sense, Vance could have been commenting on the state or nature of education, rather like Hesse in The Glass Bead Game. What most wizards did in fiction: either vanish into thin air, or fall back on the one magical trick they had that worked in a fight, or pick up a weapon - and generally only one of those per wizard. For 5e I've seriously considered slotless casters - at-will 'cantrips' and ritual casting, only. It'd be closer to the depiction in genre and would hardly be underpowered. The other part of the idea of the knowledge-wizard is that his specific occult knowledge could provide strategies or preparation to deal with specific threats, making it into more of a 'leader' role class... [/QUOTE]
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