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Lore Bard Debuffer: Spell Selection and Choice of Dip
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<blockquote data-quote="Esker" data-source="post: 7477359" data-attributes="member: 6966824"><p>Thanks so much for this detailed and super useful reply, Treantmonk!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think martial weapon proficiency does much for me, since the bard is already proficient with the only one-handed martial weapons that are based on DEX (except scimitars and whips, I guess), and longbows and heavy crossbows aren't compatible with using a shield (which is a big part of the draw). But everything else on this list is very useful. And yeah, the shield spell is probably more useful for a hexblade than a sorcerer because of the short rest mechanic.</p><p></p><p>There's no question that Hexblade gives better defense from regular attacks (I do want to be stealthy, so would probably stick to breastplate rather than half-plate, so 18 vs 15 AC, but still). If I'm breaking things down for each concern separately, it looks to me like:</p><p></p><p><u>Defense</u></p><p></p><p>Hexblade:</p><p>1) +3 AC</p><p>2) Armor of Agathys (though I don't know how useful this will be, as you have to pre-cast it, probably using a higher level slot for the HP to stay relevant)</p><p>3) +1 max HP</p><p>4) some extra HP from time to time from Hexblade's curse kills</p><p>5) can use shield spell more often</p><p></p><p>Divine Soul:</p><p>1) Favored by the Gods</p><p>2) Absorb Elements(?)</p><p></p><p>Basically, it's (substantially) superior protection from regular attacks vs superior protection from saving throw type effects. I tend to agree that the edge goes to Hexblade here, since even though I'm going to do my best not to be targeted by attacks, passive defense is better than defense that you need to use an ability or spell slot for. But I haven't played 5e enough (in fact haven't played at all above lower levels) to have a sense of the relative value of AC vs a saving throw buff at higher levels.</p><p></p><p><u>Offense</u></p><p></p><p>Hexblade: </p><p>1) Eldritch Blast (d10 force)</p><p>2) Some extra damage from Hexblade's curse</p><p></p><p>Divine Soul: </p><p>1) Choice of lesser damage cantrips that can be tailored to weak points (i.e., targeting saves instead of AC)</p><p>2) some nice side effects on those cantrips (could sub firebolt for ray of frost to get that straight d10, though the damage type is worse than EB and it's limited to one target)</p><p></p><p>This is also not exactly apples-to-apples, since you trade raw damage for some extra flexibility. Feels close to a wash to me, I think, at least if the DM allows me to make some knowledge checks to probe for weak saves... Clearly that 2nd warlock level would make it no contest.</p><p></p><p><u>Spell Slots</u></p><p></p><p>Hexblade: Short rest renewing 1st level spell slot, especially useful for shield, healing word, faerie fire</p><p></p><p>Divine Soul: Let's map out what the spell slot difference looks like over time</p><p> L7: Can upcast something to 4th level once a day (at worst, an extra 3rd level slot)</p><p> L8: An extra 4th level cast each day</p><p> L9: An extra 4th level cast, and can upcast something to 5th level (at worst, another extra 4th level cast)</p><p> L10: an extra 5th level cast</p><p> L11: Can upcast something to 6th level (at worst, an extra 5th level cast)</p><p> L12: no benefit</p><p> L13: An extra 6th level cast, or upcast something to 7th</p><p> L14: no benefit</p><p> L15: An extra 7th level cast, or upcast something to 8th</p><p> L16: no benefit</p><p> L17: An extra 8th level cast, or upcast something to 9th</p><p> L18: An extra 5th level slot</p><p> L19: An extra 6th level slot</p><p> L20: An extra 7th level slot</p><p></p><p>It's obviously difficult to weigh these without knowing how many short rests per day to expect, but I guess if we take the standard recommendation, it probably amounts to something like 2 or 3 extra 1st level casts per day against the higher level casts listed above. I think I'd agree with you that this is advantage sorcerer, though it's not totally unambiguous either.</p><p></p><p><u>Misc.</u></p><p></p><p>Divine soul effectively yields one extra bard spell known at any level, or two if I don't take absorb elements.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Esker, post: 7477359, member: 6966824"] Thanks so much for this detailed and super useful reply, Treantmonk! I don't think martial weapon proficiency does much for me, since the bard is already proficient with the only one-handed martial weapons that are based on DEX (except scimitars and whips, I guess), and longbows and heavy crossbows aren't compatible with using a shield (which is a big part of the draw). But everything else on this list is very useful. And yeah, the shield spell is probably more useful for a hexblade than a sorcerer because of the short rest mechanic. There's no question that Hexblade gives better defense from regular attacks (I do want to be stealthy, so would probably stick to breastplate rather than half-plate, so 18 vs 15 AC, but still). If I'm breaking things down for each concern separately, it looks to me like: [U]Defense[/U] Hexblade: 1) +3 AC 2) Armor of Agathys (though I don't know how useful this will be, as you have to pre-cast it, probably using a higher level slot for the HP to stay relevant) 3) +1 max HP 4) some extra HP from time to time from Hexblade's curse kills 5) can use shield spell more often Divine Soul: 1) Favored by the Gods 2) Absorb Elements(?) Basically, it's (substantially) superior protection from regular attacks vs superior protection from saving throw type effects. I tend to agree that the edge goes to Hexblade here, since even though I'm going to do my best not to be targeted by attacks, passive defense is better than defense that you need to use an ability or spell slot for. But I haven't played 5e enough (in fact haven't played at all above lower levels) to have a sense of the relative value of AC vs a saving throw buff at higher levels. [U]Offense[/U] Hexblade: 1) Eldritch Blast (d10 force) 2) Some extra damage from Hexblade's curse Divine Soul: 1) Choice of lesser damage cantrips that can be tailored to weak points (i.e., targeting saves instead of AC) 2) some nice side effects on those cantrips (could sub firebolt for ray of frost to get that straight d10, though the damage type is worse than EB and it's limited to one target) This is also not exactly apples-to-apples, since you trade raw damage for some extra flexibility. Feels close to a wash to me, I think, at least if the DM allows me to make some knowledge checks to probe for weak saves... Clearly that 2nd warlock level would make it no contest. [U]Spell Slots[/U] Hexblade: Short rest renewing 1st level spell slot, especially useful for shield, healing word, faerie fire Divine Soul: Let's map out what the spell slot difference looks like over time L7: Can upcast something to 4th level once a day (at worst, an extra 3rd level slot) L8: An extra 4th level cast each day L9: An extra 4th level cast, and can upcast something to 5th level (at worst, another extra 4th level cast) L10: an extra 5th level cast L11: Can upcast something to 6th level (at worst, an extra 5th level cast) L12: no benefit L13: An extra 6th level cast, or upcast something to 7th L14: no benefit L15: An extra 7th level cast, or upcast something to 8th L16: no benefit L17: An extra 8th level cast, or upcast something to 9th L18: An extra 5th level slot L19: An extra 6th level slot L20: An extra 7th level slot It's obviously difficult to weigh these without knowing how many short rests per day to expect, but I guess if we take the standard recommendation, it probably amounts to something like 2 or 3 extra 1st level casts per day against the higher level casts listed above. I think I'd agree with you that this is advantage sorcerer, though it's not totally unambiguous either. [U]Misc.[/U] Divine soul effectively yields one extra bard spell known at any level, or two if I don't take absorb elements. [/QUOTE]
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