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General Tabletop Discussion
Character Builds & Optimization
Lore Bard Debuffer: Spell Selection and Choice of Dip
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<blockquote data-quote="Treantmonklvl20" data-source="post: 7477856" data-attributes="member: 55582"><p>Here's an important thing to understand. As I guide writer, I can attest that you need to review things you've never played. You read, you evaluate, you write.</p><p></p><p>Therefore, there is a very good reason why the guides rank Lore Bards higher, because it reads better. Once a guide is out for awhile, especially if it's a good guide (Like Mellowred's excellent guide), it becomes the conventional wisdom.</p><p></p><p>When I first read the Player's Handbook, I read Bard and came to the conclusion: Lore Bard is the caster bard and Valor bard is the weapon bard. I made a mistake of course, but I think and understandable one. That level 6 extra attack is like a rocket to the brain of an optimizer. It is VERY difficult to ignore.</p><p></p><p>So the natural instinct was to try to make a weapon centred Valor Bard. The problem is Bard spells. They REALLY don't help a weapon-build. Particularly with damage. War Clerics get Divine Favor, Rangers get Hunter's mark, Warlocks get Hex. Bard spells just don't help much.</p><p></p><p>Then you get the "optimizers" that see Swift Quiver on the level 5 Ranger list, and figure a Valor Bard who takes it with their magical secrets at level 10 makes an AMAZING archer. Except no. You get 10 levels of being a sub-standard archer, then 10 more of being an OK archer after round 1 once or twice per day and substandard the rest of the time.</p><p></p><p>It took years of playing to realize what I had missed. You need to ignore the extra attack. What a Valor Bard is, and what they excel at, is casting. They are a caster, like your party sorcerer, except they have more skills, JOAT, Inspiration, and a good AC.</p><p></p><p>Now, it's easy to assume the Lore Bard is signficantly better at casting, after all, magical secrets at level 6 right? I mean fireball? Shield?</p><p></p><p>Here's the thing though, at level 5 is when the Bard spell list really comes into its own.</p><p>Best level 3 combat spell in the game: Hypnotic Pattern (You lore bards that waste your 3rd level slots on fireball make me sad)</p><p>Best level 4 combat spell in the game: Polymorph</p><p>Best level 5 combat spell in the game: Animate objects</p><p></p><p>and shield? If you had half-plate and a real shield, you wouldn't need shield in the first place.</p><p></p><p>Then let's talk about combat inspiration vs. cutting words.</p><p></p><p>Combat inspiration: Uses your bonus action BEFORE A COMBAT (if you're smart), can boost everything normal inspiration can plus AC and DAMAGE</p><p>Cutting words: You can use it on yourself, but hey, not if you cast shield. It's definitely not as good as shield, so that's OK. You can use it to help a friend, but not in the same round you cast shield or use it for yourself. Also, I hope 2 friends don't need it in the same round, because so sorry, it's one per round.</p><p></p><p>I'm painting a one-sided picture here, and frankly Lore Bards are pretty great too, I have really come around though with several chances to play each that I think the Valor Bard is the superior option of the two.</p><p></p><p>Now if you do want to make a weapon using bard, actually, a college of swords multiclass with paladin is pretty friggin' great.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Treantmonklvl20, post: 7477856, member: 55582"] Here's an important thing to understand. As I guide writer, I can attest that you need to review things you've never played. You read, you evaluate, you write. Therefore, there is a very good reason why the guides rank Lore Bards higher, because it reads better. Once a guide is out for awhile, especially if it's a good guide (Like Mellowred's excellent guide), it becomes the conventional wisdom. When I first read the Player's Handbook, I read Bard and came to the conclusion: Lore Bard is the caster bard and Valor bard is the weapon bard. I made a mistake of course, but I think and understandable one. That level 6 extra attack is like a rocket to the brain of an optimizer. It is VERY difficult to ignore. So the natural instinct was to try to make a weapon centred Valor Bard. The problem is Bard spells. They REALLY don't help a weapon-build. Particularly with damage. War Clerics get Divine Favor, Rangers get Hunter's mark, Warlocks get Hex. Bard spells just don't help much. Then you get the "optimizers" that see Swift Quiver on the level 5 Ranger list, and figure a Valor Bard who takes it with their magical secrets at level 10 makes an AMAZING archer. Except no. You get 10 levels of being a sub-standard archer, then 10 more of being an OK archer after round 1 once or twice per day and substandard the rest of the time. It took years of playing to realize what I had missed. You need to ignore the extra attack. What a Valor Bard is, and what they excel at, is casting. They are a caster, like your party sorcerer, except they have more skills, JOAT, Inspiration, and a good AC. Now, it's easy to assume the Lore Bard is signficantly better at casting, after all, magical secrets at level 6 right? I mean fireball? Shield? Here's the thing though, at level 5 is when the Bard spell list really comes into its own. Best level 3 combat spell in the game: Hypnotic Pattern (You lore bards that waste your 3rd level slots on fireball make me sad) Best level 4 combat spell in the game: Polymorph Best level 5 combat spell in the game: Animate objects and shield? If you had half-plate and a real shield, you wouldn't need shield in the first place. Then let's talk about combat inspiration vs. cutting words. Combat inspiration: Uses your bonus action BEFORE A COMBAT (if you're smart), can boost everything normal inspiration can plus AC and DAMAGE Cutting words: You can use it on yourself, but hey, not if you cast shield. It's definitely not as good as shield, so that's OK. You can use it to help a friend, but not in the same round you cast shield or use it for yourself. Also, I hope 2 friends don't need it in the same round, because so sorry, it's one per round. I'm painting a one-sided picture here, and frankly Lore Bards are pretty great too, I have really come around though with several chances to play each that I think the Valor Bard is the superior option of the two. Now if you do want to make a weapon using bard, actually, a college of swords multiclass with paladin is pretty friggin' great. [/QUOTE]
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