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General Tabletop Discussion
Character Builds & Optimization
Lore Bard Debuffer: Spell Selection and Choice of Dip
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<blockquote data-quote="Treantmonklvl20" data-source="post: 7478333" data-attributes="member: 55582"><p>If that's the way it came out, then I overstated. I'm saying a Valor Bard is not a significantly worse caster than a Lore Bard, but has superior defense and use of inspiration, making them the better choice overall.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Here's the situation. As a (single classed) Lore Bard, you have (likely) studded leather armor. No shield. Dex 16 if you're lucky. That's an AC of 15. No spells that improve defense other than improved invisibility (which isn't a very good option as it uses your concentration, which all your good offense spells use as well). Your HP are d8. You are easily identified as the primary caster in combat and will certainly be targeted by attacks.</p><p></p><p>This is not a good combination. At level 6, when magical secrets comes around, you are probably going to want to do something about it. There are a few options:</p><p></p><p>Mirror Image: Good against up to 3 attacks. Does not use concentration. Uses your action to set up. If you know battle is about to start, you can potentially get it up beforehand.</p><p>Shield: Good against all attacks in one round. Does not use concentration. Uses your reaction to set up.</p><p></p><p>Honestly, neither is a perfect defense, but I would certainly take one of them, or maybe even both of them. Remember, if you lose initiative, that mirror image isn't going to help you.</p><p></p><p></p><p>One thing I have lots of experience in is playing the caster who hangs back in combat. I also have lots of experience talking to other players who play this type of character. I've also read many adventures where the enemy tactics are provided for the DM.</p><p></p><p>I will tell you this. Many combats you can avoid attacks entirely. Many combats you get targeted. The "average" is meaningless. It's a pendulum. You get attacked lots, or not at all.</p><p></p><p>Those combats where you get attacked not at all aren't the problem. A Wizard who gets attacked lots has lots of defenses. Shield, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Blur, Mage Armor, Counterspell, and the list goes on.</p><p></p><p>Lore bards have studded leather armor. They can use cutting words against one hit on them per round, and maybe, maybe turn it to a miss. It's not enough.</p><p></p><p>I can say this without question. I've seen more Lore Bard deaths in 5e than any other archetype. AC is bad, HP are so-so, and the defenses aren't there. In battles where the primary caster gets targeted, they just don't have anything to fall back on.</p><p></p><p>Often, this is before magical secrets is even available.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Keep in mind, other classes have defenses of their own as well. They wear heavy armor, or can cut enemy damage in half, or have a ton of HP, or spells that get them out of danger, or several of those things.</p><p></p><p>Not saying you won't be using cutting words to help other party members, and that being able to target one being picked on more than once isn't an advantage, just keep in mind that other party members are usually better at defending themselves.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Here's where I find it gets used.</p><p></p><p>Player: Does 15 hit?</p><p>DM: Yes</p><p>Player: 12 damage</p><p>DM: (laughs), You hit him hard, he's wavering, but still up!</p><p>Player: I use the inspiration die! Add 5 damage</p><p>DM: That does it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Treantmonklvl20, post: 7478333, member: 55582"] If that's the way it came out, then I overstated. I'm saying a Valor Bard is not a significantly worse caster than a Lore Bard, but has superior defense and use of inspiration, making them the better choice overall. Yes. Here's the situation. As a (single classed) Lore Bard, you have (likely) studded leather armor. No shield. Dex 16 if you're lucky. That's an AC of 15. No spells that improve defense other than improved invisibility (which isn't a very good option as it uses your concentration, which all your good offense spells use as well). Your HP are d8. You are easily identified as the primary caster in combat and will certainly be targeted by attacks. This is not a good combination. At level 6, when magical secrets comes around, you are probably going to want to do something about it. There are a few options: Mirror Image: Good against up to 3 attacks. Does not use concentration. Uses your action to set up. If you know battle is about to start, you can potentially get it up beforehand. Shield: Good against all attacks in one round. Does not use concentration. Uses your reaction to set up. Honestly, neither is a perfect defense, but I would certainly take one of them, or maybe even both of them. Remember, if you lose initiative, that mirror image isn't going to help you. One thing I have lots of experience in is playing the caster who hangs back in combat. I also have lots of experience talking to other players who play this type of character. I've also read many adventures where the enemy tactics are provided for the DM. I will tell you this. Many combats you can avoid attacks entirely. Many combats you get targeted. The "average" is meaningless. It's a pendulum. You get attacked lots, or not at all. Those combats where you get attacked not at all aren't the problem. A Wizard who gets attacked lots has lots of defenses. Shield, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Blur, Mage Armor, Counterspell, and the list goes on. Lore bards have studded leather armor. They can use cutting words against one hit on them per round, and maybe, maybe turn it to a miss. It's not enough. I can say this without question. I've seen more Lore Bard deaths in 5e than any other archetype. AC is bad, HP are so-so, and the defenses aren't there. In battles where the primary caster gets targeted, they just don't have anything to fall back on. Often, this is before magical secrets is even available. Keep in mind, other classes have defenses of their own as well. They wear heavy armor, or can cut enemy damage in half, or have a ton of HP, or spells that get them out of danger, or several of those things. Not saying you won't be using cutting words to help other party members, and that being able to target one being picked on more than once isn't an advantage, just keep in mind that other party members are usually better at defending themselves. Here's where I find it gets used. Player: Does 15 hit? DM: Yes Player: 12 damage DM: (laughs), You hit him hard, he's wavering, but still up! Player: I use the inspiration die! Add 5 damage DM: That does it. [/QUOTE]
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