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Low-level Wizards in PF2 - are they still underpowered?
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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7961760" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>No, you're not missing anything.</p><p></p><p>We're up to level 5 for the second time (our second PF2 party) and no, low level spellcasters remain just as feeble as in other pre-5E editions if we talk offensive damage.</p><p></p><p>The Cleric is awesome, but that's almost singlehandedly thanks to the +8 per spell level of the two-action Heal spell (and now at fifth level, also Remove Disease). As a combatant, the Cleric and the Wizard are clearly and decidedly left in the Fighter's, Ranger's and especially Barbarian's dust.</p><p></p><p>Yes, that includes Electric Arc and Magic Missile and Fireball.</p><p></p><p>No, I'm not talking about utility (your selection of Invisibility, Faire Fire or Fly spells are sure to justify the inclusion of a caster in the party, but we're discussing offensive damage here).</p><p></p><p>Your specific concerns:</p><p></p><p><strong>Acid Splash</strong> earns its living almost entirely because of that 1 Splash damage. Make the damage persistent to the primary target and we might be talking.</p><p></p><p><strong>Chill Touch</strong> is just garbage, since a caster in melee range is an unconscious dying caster. (Give it a d12 damage die just like in 5E and the Wizard would likely STILL not take it!)</p><p></p><p><strong>Electric Arc</strong> is the one cantrip both casters took, simply because its DPR is far higher than any alternative. (It's still only maybe half the DPR of a martial, so while I like that cantrips doesn't outcompete weapon damage - especially ranged weapons - it still feels a tad low. But its the one cantrip least in need of a buff) Could probably have been made more interesting if targets needed to be no more than 10 ft apart (the range of 30 ft to the closest target could remain, but targets can't be 60 ft apart if you're standing in the middle, as we've ruled the current spell to work), but with a maximum of three targets not two. As it is, it's simply the go-to cantrip of every player with a rudimentary grasp on math, which, frankly, makes it boring.</p><p></p><p><strong>Ray of Frost:</strong> In order to justify the low damage its utility must increase. I understand moving the Speed penalty to a regular success (like in 5E) opens up kiting too much, but the spell needs to accomplish something tangible on a regular success to be worthwhile.</p><p></p><p>I disagree with Paizo's decision to let Produce Flame be the only fire cantrip. There is definitely design space for a Fire Ray for arcane casters. I also would have liked to reserve persistent damage for acid spells.</p><p></p><p><strong>Produce Flame</strong> is weak, but then again, for Druids that's maybe okay. I would probably still have the spell say "when used as a melee attack spell, if you roll a success, you get a critical success instead."</p><p></p><p><strong>Fire Ray</strong> would be a cantrip with a great range and maybe a d10 damage die.</p><p></p><p>Then I would have liked to see at least two more cantrips that trigger saves as opposed to requiring spell attack rolls. Maybe one Sonic and one (more) Cold cantrip.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7961760, member: 12731"] No, you're not missing anything. We're up to level 5 for the second time (our second PF2 party) and no, low level spellcasters remain just as feeble as in other pre-5E editions if we talk offensive damage. The Cleric is awesome, but that's almost singlehandedly thanks to the +8 per spell level of the two-action Heal spell (and now at fifth level, also Remove Disease). As a combatant, the Cleric and the Wizard are clearly and decidedly left in the Fighter's, Ranger's and especially Barbarian's dust. Yes, that includes Electric Arc and Magic Missile and Fireball. No, I'm not talking about utility (your selection of Invisibility, Faire Fire or Fly spells are sure to justify the inclusion of a caster in the party, but we're discussing offensive damage here). Your specific concerns: [B]Acid Splash[/B] earns its living almost entirely because of that 1 Splash damage. Make the damage persistent to the primary target and we might be talking. [B]Chill Touch[/B] is just garbage, since a caster in melee range is an unconscious dying caster. (Give it a d12 damage die just like in 5E and the Wizard would likely STILL not take it!) [B]Electric Arc[/B] is the one cantrip both casters took, simply because its DPR is far higher than any alternative. (It's still only maybe half the DPR of a martial, so while I like that cantrips doesn't outcompete weapon damage - especially ranged weapons - it still feels a tad low. But its the one cantrip least in need of a buff) Could probably have been made more interesting if targets needed to be no more than 10 ft apart (the range of 30 ft to the closest target could remain, but targets can't be 60 ft apart if you're standing in the middle, as we've ruled the current spell to work), but with a maximum of three targets not two. As it is, it's simply the go-to cantrip of every player with a rudimentary grasp on math, which, frankly, makes it boring. [B]Ray of Frost:[/B] In order to justify the low damage its utility must increase. I understand moving the Speed penalty to a regular success (like in 5E) opens up kiting too much, but the spell needs to accomplish something tangible on a regular success to be worthwhile. I disagree with Paizo's decision to let Produce Flame be the only fire cantrip. There is definitely design space for a Fire Ray for arcane casters. I also would have liked to reserve persistent damage for acid spells. [B]Produce Flame[/B] is weak, but then again, for Druids that's maybe okay. I would probably still have the spell say "when used as a melee attack spell, if you roll a success, you get a critical success instead." [B]Fire Ray[/B] would be a cantrip with a great range and maybe a d10 damage die. Then I would have liked to see at least two more cantrips that trigger saves as opposed to requiring spell attack rolls. Maybe one Sonic and one (more) Cold cantrip. [/QUOTE]
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Low-level Wizards in PF2 - are they still underpowered?
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